Well, I heard back again today, here's the unedited reply, interested to hear what folks make of it. To me it still seems like it'd be hard to recommend someone use CC-BY-SA assets with a closed source project. At the same time, I'm really impressed they've taken the time to reply and do seem genuinely interested in helping us understand the licenses.
Hey Scott,
Thanks for the email. I'm happy to provide my thoughts about these two scenarios, but I should note that my opinion does not necessarily reflect what CC licensors might want or expect. I know that is stating the obvious, but just wanted to point it out since you mentioned wanting to adhere to the original artist's wishes.
Re: the PNG file example, to me that doesn't sound like an adaptation if they are using the file unmodified. It sounds more like a reproduction, which would just mean that the file itself remains under BY-SA, but the other copyrighted material in the game could be licensed differently. (Note that if the original BY-SA content was a character with existing story lines and character development, then using that character in a new story line likely would be an adaptation.)
Re: the synching example, you're right that it would apply to any musical composition or sound recording, including a sound effect file. The adaptation would be the work that synchronizes that music with a moving image. I don't know enough about the process of game development to know whether the sprite sheet would be the embodiment of that or not.
Your questions make me wonder if you think there are forms of more generalized guidance from CC that might be useful in this domain. We are currently doing a lot of thinking about projects we will take on for the next couple of years at CC, so I'd be very interested in whether you think there is a need for CC to publish guidance about these sorts of issues. We'd welcome your input on that.
Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 12:20
@Chris_M_The_Game_Dude:
Glad you found it helpful! Nota buena though, be sure to read the discussion at the bottom of the feedback forum post:
mdwh has correctly raised a concern about whether games qualify as 'Adaptations/Derivatives' or 'Collections' with regards to the 'share alike' clause CC-BY-SA licenses. I have contacted the Creative Commons team to try and get some clarification on the issue, but their initial response was very much 'it depends', implying that CC-BY-SA assets should not be used in closed source projects unless you're prepared for the possibility that you may ultimately have to share your source.
Making this a sticky post would be a good start, the ultimate goal is to get the site docs updated. But even then maybe a sticky post that directs people to the docs/FAQ would be good.
Tuesday, January 19, 2016 - 06:42
this is great! I don't know if it's what you were going for, or just the title planting a suggestion in my mind but it's great music to program to! Kind of captures the feeling of it real well, a sort of grand, exciting but lonely adventure. I love it!
Yeah, I also found it intersting that they separated the image synched with music from the rest of the project and said only that would need to be released as SA.
Of course, this still raises it's own issues. Suppose you take a CC-BY-SA 'jump' sound and use it with a 'CC-BY' sprite. Now you need to release the sprite as CC-BY-SA but you can't because you don't own the original work.
Well for the record, here's how I replied, I figured spelling out a specific example might help, guess we'll see!
Thanks very much for your reply!
I definitely understand what a tricky area this can be and do appreciate you taking the time to try and clarify the matter for us some.
May I ask a few follow up questions?
I guess I kept my initial question deliberately broad in order to keep it short and simple, but it maybe it would more helpful if I provide a concrete example.
Suppose an artists creates a PNG w/ multiple images of a cartoon rabbit in various poses (walking, standing, hopping, eating, etc) and releases the PNG under the CC-BY-SA license.
Now a second artist takes the PNG and uses it in their video game 'Run Rabbit Run!'
The 2nd artist makes no changes to the PNG, but loads it and uses it for the main character, showing one pose at time for the rabbit's different movements in the game and all synched with the players input.
Would this constitute an 'Adaptation' under the CC-BY-SA?
Setting aside the legal issues involved, can I ask about the intent of the Creative Commons with regards to use of SA assets in an example like this?
Is this the sort of use the Creative Commons would want to be considered an adaptation?
I ask this not just to side step the legal issues and avoid asking you for legal advice, but because that's actually an important consideration for the OGA community also. At Open Game Art, we pride ourselves on sharing assets in a way that is legal, moral, and in keeping with the original artists wishes. We will remove work from the site regardless of the license if an artist requests it. So sometimes, regardless what the courts say, it's just as important for us to understand what an artist intended when they selected a license. Of course, to be sure guessing this can be risky game, but certainly it would be helpful for us to know how Creative Commons intends or hopes the license would be interpreted.
Regarding the example of synching music and a moving image, just to 100% clear, this would also apply when using a sound effect licensed as CC-SA also, correct? So if someone took a 'bunny hop' sound licensed as CC-SA-BY and synched it with a sprite of a bunny hopping in their game, they would need to share the sprite sheet for that as CC-SA-BY also? but not the entire game (code base, other music, assets, etc.)
Thanks again for your help with this. These questions have bedeviled our community pretty much from it's start, so it's great to have any clarification or advice that you can provide.
Friday, January 15, 2016 - 15:01
hey! what do you know, I heard back:
The answers to your question all hinge on whether you are creating an adaptation of the BY-SA work. This is a complicated legal question with no black and white answers, which also depends on what jurisdiction you are in. Here is an FAQ from our site about the topic: https://wiki.creativecommons.org/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions#Wh...
There is one fairly clear-cut scenario in this though, and that is when you are using BY-SA licensed music and synching it with a moving image. In those cases, what you are creating is an adaptation because it is written into the terms of the CC license.
Whenever what you have done creates an adaptation, you only have to ShareAlike the adaptation and not anything else that happens to be aggregated with the work. For example, in the scenario above with BY-SA music you would need to ShareAlike the moving image that uses the music, but you could license the source code to the game however you like.
Sorry for the somewhat complex answer, but this is a tricky area. We can't give legal advice either so unfortunately even with more specific facts, we wouldn't be able to provide complete clarity. Hope this helps at least lead you toward the answers you need.
Sadly that doesn't really help very much. I'll try writing back to see if I can get any better clarification, but the vibe I'm getting here is very much 'USE AT YOUR OWN RISK' :(
Friday, January 15, 2016 - 08:38
@Ramert1404: If you have the time, it would be great to hear if you found anything in the FAQ or my suggested changes useful or informative, or if you had any further questions after reading them.
Friday, January 15, 2016 - 06:36
I do think artists intent matters also. Does an artist want anything done with a work to be released into the commons also, or are they only concerned about more direct revisions to the work itself? Unfortunately, since CC hasn't clarified the issue, it's really hard to make any assumptions about what an artist intends by selecting the license.
Well, no reply yet, but still hoping.
In the mean time, here's the full text of my email to CC:
The site houses art (images, sprites, 3D models, music, sfx, etc) for use in video games and related projects under a variety of different open licenses (CC licenses, GPL, etc).
A question that comes up again and again is:
Can I uses XYZ work licensed as CC-SA-3.0 in my closed source video game project?
Put another way:
If I use XYZ work licensed as CC-SA-3.0 in my project, must I also release the project itself (final game, source code, other assets used, etc.) as CC-SA-3.0?
Put into the terms of the CC-SA-3.0 license itself:
Does using a work (image, sound effect, song, etc.) in a video game constitute an 'adaptation' as defined CC-SA 3.0 licenses?
And if so, would a video game using the work be required to be released as CC-SA 3.0?
And if so, would all the components of the video game (eg. source code, other art assets, etc) be required to be released as CC-BY-SA or would it be sufficient to just release the final completed game package (eg. compiled binaries, windows installer, Android package, etc.) as CC-BY-SA?
Sorry to be asking about the old version of the license, the site is in the process of adding support for the new license versions, but most of the work on there now is under the 3.0 versions, so that's why I ask specifically about those.
Thanks very much for your time!
Looking it over, I kind of abbreviated CC-BY-SA as CC-SA a few times, but hopefully they get the point.
Well, I encourage anyone else to write them asking them the same question, maybe if we throw enough rocks one might get through.* ;)
* just to be clear, that's a Tragically Hip reference not an endorsement of throwing rocks! :)
Wednesday, January 13, 2016 - 12:34
@Redshrike: You're right, but certainly knowing how CC /intended/ video games to be treated under the license would be helpful. They may also be able to comment on how well their intent has held up in the courts.
@MedicineStorm: Trying not to get to excited myself (what are the odds they even respond?) but gotta admit I'm definitely very curious to hear what they have to say.
Did some spelunking through their mailing list archives the other day. Seems like just the place to look to see if they've addressed this question before. But sadly, the archives are only viewable one month at a time, and they go back to 2009, so it'll take some time to get through them all.
@DezrasDragons: Yeah. "discussed to death" is definitely the technical term for it! :)
Hopefully, we can get some clarity from CC on this. I did get a nice auto-reply message that promised a personal reply in 2-3 days so we can hope!
But if not, maybe we can just go with some suitably cautionary language, eg:
There is considerable debate about whether a video game using a work licensed as CC-SA-3.0 constitutes a 'derived' work or not by the terms of the license. Until Creative Commons issues a proper clarification on this issue, it is advised that licensees assume a video game (or similar project) would be considered a derived work under the license and therefore be required to be distributed under the same terms (ie. as CC-SA-3.0).
Well, I heard back again today, here's the unedited reply, interested to hear what folks make of it. To me it still seems like it'd be hard to recommend someone use CC-BY-SA assets with a closed source project. At the same time, I'm really impressed they've taken the time to reply and do seem genuinely interested in helping us understand the licenses.
Hey Scott,
Thanks for the email. I'm happy to provide my thoughts about these two scenarios, but I should note that my opinion does not necessarily reflect what CC licensors might want or expect. I know that is stating the obvious, but just wanted to point it out since you mentioned wanting to adhere to the original artist's wishes.
Re: the PNG file example, to me that doesn't sound like an adaptation if they are using the file unmodified. It sounds more like a reproduction, which would just mean that the file itself remains under BY-SA, but the other copyrighted material in the game could be licensed differently. (Note that if the original BY-SA content was a character with existing story lines and character development, then using that character in a new story line likely would be an adaptation.)
Re: the synching example, you're right that it would apply to any musical composition or sound recording, including a sound effect file. The adaptation would be the work that synchronizes that music with a moving image. I don't know enough about the process of game development to know whether the sprite sheet would be the embodiment of that or not.
Your questions make me wonder if you think there are forms of more generalized guidance from CC that might be useful in this domain. We are currently doing a lot of thinking about projects we will take on for the next couple of years at CC, so I'd be very interested in whether you think there is a need for CC to publish guidance about these sorts of issues. We'd welcome your input on that.
@Chris_M_The_Game_Dude:
Glad you found it helpful! Nota buena though, be sure to read the discussion at the bottom of the feedback forum post:
http://opengameart.org/forumtopic/site-faqsubmission-guidelines-updatesc...
mdwh has correctly raised a concern about whether games qualify as 'Adaptations/Derivatives' or 'Collections' with regards to the 'share alike' clause CC-BY-SA licenses. I have contacted the Creative Commons team to try and get some clarification on the issue, but their initial response was very much 'it depends', implying that CC-BY-SA assets should not be used in closed source projects unless you're prepared for the possibility that you may ultimately have to share your source.
Making this a sticky post would be a good start, the ultimate goal is to get the site docs updated. But even then maybe a sticky post that directs people to the docs/FAQ would be good.
this is great! I don't know if it's what you were going for, or just the title planting a suggestion in my mind but it's great music to program to! Kind of captures the feeling of it real well, a sort of grand, exciting but lonely adventure. I love it!
Beardy McBeard! I love him! Great work!
Yeah, I also found it intersting that they separated the image synched with music from the rest of the project and said only that would need to be released as SA.
Of course, this still raises it's own issues. Suppose you take a CC-BY-SA 'jump' sound and use it with a 'CC-BY' sprite. Now you need to release the sprite as CC-BY-SA but you can't because you don't own the original work.
Well for the record, here's how I replied, I figured spelling out a specific example might help, guess we'll see!
Thanks very much for your reply!
I definitely understand what a tricky area this can be and do appreciate you taking the time to try and clarify the matter for us some.
May I ask a few follow up questions?
I guess I kept my initial question deliberately broad in order to keep it short and simple, but it maybe it would more helpful if I provide a concrete example.
Suppose an artists creates a PNG w/ multiple images of a cartoon rabbit in various poses (walking, standing, hopping, eating, etc) and releases the PNG under the CC-BY-SA license.
Now a second artist takes the PNG and uses it in their video game 'Run Rabbit Run!'
The 2nd artist makes no changes to the PNG, but loads it and uses it for the main character, showing one pose at time for the rabbit's different movements in the game and all synched with the players input.
Would this constitute an 'Adaptation' under the CC-BY-SA?
Setting aside the legal issues involved, can I ask about the intent of the Creative Commons with regards to use of SA assets in an example like this?
Is this the sort of use the Creative Commons would want to be considered an adaptation?
I ask this not just to side step the legal issues and avoid asking you for legal advice, but because that's actually an important consideration for the OGA community also. At Open Game Art, we pride ourselves on sharing assets in a way that is legal, moral, and in keeping with the original artists wishes. We will remove work from the site regardless of the license if an artist requests it. So sometimes, regardless what the courts say, it's just as important for us to understand what an artist intended when they selected a license. Of course, to be sure guessing this can be risky game, but certainly it would be helpful for us to know how Creative Commons intends or hopes the license would be interpreted.
Regarding the example of synching music and a moving image, just to 100% clear, this would also apply when using a sound effect licensed as CC-SA also, correct? So if someone took a 'bunny hop' sound licensed as CC-SA-BY and synched it with a sprite of a bunny hopping in their game, they would need to share the sprite sheet for that as CC-SA-BY also? but not the entire game (code base, other music, assets, etc.)
Thanks again for your help with this. These questions have bedeviled our community pretty much from it's start, so it's great to have any clarification or advice that you can provide.
hey! what do you know, I heard back:
The answers to your question all hinge on whether you are creating an adaptation of the BY-SA work. This is a complicated legal question with no black and white answers, which also depends on what jurisdiction you are in. Here is an FAQ from our site about the topic: https://wiki.creativecommons.org/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions#Wh...
There is one fairly clear-cut scenario in this though, and that is when you are using BY-SA licensed music and synching it with a moving image. In those cases, what you are creating is an adaptation because it is written into the terms of the CC license.
Whenever what you have done creates an adaptation, you only have to ShareAlike the adaptation and not anything else that happens to be aggregated with the work. For example, in the scenario above with BY-SA music you would need to ShareAlike the moving image that uses the music, but you could license the source code to the game however you like.
Sorry for the somewhat complex answer, but this is a tricky area. We can't give legal advice either so unfortunately even with more specific facts, we wouldn't be able to provide complete clarity. Hope this helps at least lead you toward the answers you need.
Sadly that doesn't really help very much. I'll try writing back to see if I can get any better clarification, but the vibe I'm getting here is very much 'USE AT YOUR OWN RISK' :(
@Ramert1404: If you have the time, it would be great to hear if you found anything in the FAQ or my suggested changes useful or informative, or if you had any further questions after reading them.
I do think artists intent matters also. Does an artist want anything done with a work to be released into the commons also, or are they only concerned about more direct revisions to the work itself? Unfortunately, since CC hasn't clarified the issue, it's really hard to make any assumptions about what an artist intends by selecting the license.
Well, no reply yet, but still hoping.
In the mean time, here's the full text of my email to CC:
To: info@creativecommons.org
Subject: Use of CC-SA-3.0 art in Video Games
Hi,
I am writing for help answering a question for the Open Game Art community, located at:
http://www.opengameart.org
The site houses art (images, sprites, 3D models, music, sfx, etc) for use in video games and related projects under a variety of different open licenses (CC licenses, GPL, etc).
A question that comes up again and again is:
Can I uses XYZ work licensed as CC-SA-3.0 in my closed source video game project?
Put another way:
If I use XYZ work licensed as CC-SA-3.0 in my project, must I also release the project itself (final game, source code, other assets used, etc.) as CC-SA-3.0?
Put into the terms of the CC-SA-3.0 license itself:
Does using a work (image, sound effect, song, etc.) in a video game constitute an 'adaptation' as defined CC-SA 3.0 licenses?
And if so, would a video game using the work be required to be released as CC-SA 3.0?
And if so, would all the components of the video game (eg. source code, other art assets, etc) be required to be released as CC-BY-SA or would it be sufficient to just release the final completed game package (eg. compiled binaries, windows installer, Android package, etc.) as CC-BY-SA?
Sorry to be asking about the old version of the license, the site is in the process of adding support for the new license versions, but most of the work on there now is under the 3.0 versions, so that's why I ask specifically about those.
Thanks very much for your time!
Looking it over, I kind of abbreviated CC-BY-SA as CC-SA a few times, but hopefully they get the point.
Well, I encourage anyone else to write them asking them the same question, maybe if we throw enough rocks one might get through.* ;)
* just to be clear, that's a Tragically Hip reference not an endorsement of throwing rocks! :)
@Redshrike: You're right, but certainly knowing how CC /intended/ video games to be treated under the license would be helpful. They may also be able to comment on how well their intent has held up in the courts.
@MedicineStorm: Trying not to get to excited myself (what are the odds they even respond?) but gotta admit I'm definitely very curious to hear what they have to say.
Did some spelunking through their mailing list archives the other day. Seems like just the place to look to see if they've addressed this question before. But sadly, the archives are only viewable one month at a time, and they go back to 2009, so it'll take some time to get through them all.
Archives here, if anyone else is interested:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-community/
@DezrasDragons: Yeah. "discussed to death" is definitely the technical term for it! :)
Hopefully, we can get some clarity from CC on this. I did get a nice auto-reply message that promised a personal reply in 2-3 days so we can hope!
But if not, maybe we can just go with some suitably cautionary language, eg:
There is considerable debate about whether a video game using a work licensed as CC-SA-3.0 constitutes a 'derived' work or not by the terms of the license. Until Creative Commons issues a proper clarification on this issue, it is advised that licensees assume a video game (or similar project) would be considered a derived work under the license and therefore be required to be distributed under the same terms (ie. as CC-SA-3.0).
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