If I make a video game via the Flare engine can I copyright the video game, as like Clint Bellanger did with the Flare game; or?
If I make a video game via the Flare engine can I copyright the video game, as like Clint Bellanger did with the Flare game; or?
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So say I make this big R.P.G. and I want to have a commercial version (say like the original Doom / Rune Scape / ~'Many Freemium Games') where a big chunk of the video game is free but the rest of the later content is paid for. Could I legally copyright the video game I made (like how Clint Bellanger copyrighted the Flare Game; but the engine is still open source)? I am wondering if I can do the same thing legally as Clint Bellanger so that the assets / engine / 'the guts of the game' are open source but the video game I that make itself all together can be copyrighted by myself? This is so that if I make a version of the game to sell commercially only I can legally sell it and prevent someone else selling the same game I made on Steam / GoG / other online game stores.
Can I legally copyright my own video game I make with the Flare Engine so legally I am the sole legal owner of the intellectual property / no one can just scoop it as an exact copy can sell it under a different company? I am not asking to copyright the engine / what is legally open source but I am wondering if I can do the same thing that Clint Bellanger did and copyright a video game I made from the Flare Engine? If I can copyright a video game I made from the Flare Engine I am wondering what rules and guide lines I must follow in order to make it copyrighted and what I need to do in order to do this successfully. How do I copyright anything anyway? I live in Canada so do I go here https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cipointernet-internetopic.nsf/eng/h_wr0000... and be like 'yeah I got a brand / video game series and this early version of this video game do I just pay you guys like 1K after checking the names through the system or something and then if it all checks out I own the intellectual property rights / copyright(s) for my video game brand / series and early and subsequent versions of the video game I make with the Flare engine'?
Currently I have never made a commercially viable game before so I am wondering on how to make this work If I can copyright a video game via the Flare engine that I make. I am not sure exactly what to do and I have a bunch of questions like how do I even get paid / set up an online store / way for online people to buy the video game successfully? I have my own registered Canadian company legally (I live Canada). So somehow I suppose that could be used on Steam / GoG / other online game stores and then somehow the money goes through the video game store into my bank account (do I need to make a company bank account)? Does all of the money go through something like ~PayPal? How do I set up my own website and get forums happening and how can I set up my own online store front / video game website? How does selling merchandise work? I can pay people / video game developers with PayPal (for I have done that before) but I have never been paid to make content / I have never sold anything online like a video game I make. So I am pretty much in the dark on how to copyright my own video game(s), set up a store front, and hopefully sell some copies; I have not done all of this ~full cycle' from start to finish. I have some ideas but I have no first hand experience. Does anyone here know what to do and what options I have?
I have been in contact with Clint Bellanger and I have a lot more clarity now and it looks good. I can legally sell my video game and the community can also be forever free to modify my video game:
*after a ~long series of confidential emails / out of respect Clint Bellanger I will only post a very small brief piece for educational reasons / to add closure to this thread*
Myself:
"So I can make a video game "built on" the Flare Engine and Fantasy core and all Open Source / GPL-3.0 License / CC-BY-SA license assets / components with proper permissions and with proper attribution of components creditor with credits and have a registered trademarked title and legally be the sole entity able to sell that exact version of the video game online? Also the community is legally forever free to modify my video game as long as the title is changed and the video game's content is at least once modified?"
Clint Bellanger:
"Basically yes on everything you said. This is one reason I chose the license, so that remixer and modders could safely release and sell their projects as long as they were also cool with other remixers and modders."
I am applying for a registered trademark for the title of my medieval fantasy setting decades long body of work. Of which I hope to apply also to my video game set within my own medieval fantasy world.
I also set up placeholder / dry run / work in progress versions of my online storefront pages on Itch.io, Steam and Good Old Games for when my video game is ready to launch.
I have a clear legally sound path forward and I feel that I have peace of mind in investing an insane amount of time understanding that legally I can sell my work put into making my own video game built on Flare Engine and Fantasy core and all Open Source / GPL-3.0 License / CC-BY-SA license assets / components with proper permissions and with proper attribution of components creators with credits.
I plan on releasing my own art assets as Open Source / GPL-3.0 License / CC-BY-SA / CC BY 3.0 License on at least Open Game Art for the community to use forever free.
I hope to release some play test pre-alpha (and then hopefully progressing to alpha) versions of my video game / R.P.G. for the community to hopefully enjoy and give constructive feedback to better improve my content creation process / video game content development.
Thank you for your time everyone.
Nice! I'm glad you were able to get that determined. That's good information to know. I look forward to playing it!
--Medicine Storm
"If you are the sole and legal owner of the game, you can copyright the game."
But he is not, he does not own the engine neither the base assets (the ones in Fantasy Core). That's why he asked.
@WithinAmnesia: you are a bit confused about the licenses. Let me help:
With PD / MIT / CC-0 / CC-BY licensed assets you can do what you're planning, you can copyright your game as you wish (even closed-source and proprietary), and you can stop (at least legally) others from selling your game.
But you CAN'T do that with GPL / CC-BY-SA licensed assets (because these are so called copyleft licenses). This means you must copyright your game with the same terms that were granted to you by these licenses, you are legally not allowed to take away any of that freedom from your users.
"if I make a version of the game to sell commercially only I can legally sell it and prevent someone else selling the same game I made"
Other words, if you use assets with GPL / CC-BY-SA licenses then you CANNOT copyright your game as you like, and you cannot stop others from selling your game. (You're legally not allowed to take away their freedom to sell your game, does this make sense to you?)
"legally I can sell my work put into making my own video game"
You can always sell Free and Open Source licensed software either you made it or not, doesn't matter (free as in freedom, not as in free beer), with the one notable exception of the CC-BY-NC-SA license.
Hope this helps,
bzt
Yes, it seems like vasder has not fully understood the question being asked.
bzt's answer, although not wrong, is still incomplete. You CAN do what op is asking with GPL and CC-BY-SA. But only by keeping the components separate. OP may not be able to copyright the "full" game; the engine AND the assets AND the narrative components AND the gameplay mechanics, but the components that WithinAmnesia is the sole legal owner and creator of can be copyrighted and he can prevent others from selling the game so long as "the game" contains those components.
This is the same way many AAA games operate as well. Any major game that uses the Unity or Unreal engine as their backbone can still copyright their game (sans the engine) and prevent others from selling it or redistributing it without permission. The game studio doesn't have license over the game's framework, but they still have license to distribute the other components they made that run on the engine.
The assets can be under CC-BY-SA, the engine can be under GPL, and the narrative can be under a proprietary copyright. The licensing has to be kept clean with each of these parts under their own "collection", but it is well within the legal framework of each of the licenses. GPL is the most troublesome for this because, depending on how code is linked to other GPL code, it may not be able to be kept in a separate "legal collection". Never the less, the other components are still owned by WithinAmnesia.
Ultimately, OP has already received a response from the author of both the game engine and the majority of assets, who has confirmed to OP this is allowed by the license and has even given his blessing to do it the way OP outlined above.
--Medicine Storm
I forgot, one more (very important) thing.
"I also set up placeholder / dry run / work in progress versions of my online storefront pages on Itch.io, Steam and Good Old Games for when my video game is ready to launch."
If you're planning to distribute a complete playable video game (with the executable and data files packed together), then you should know that you can't choose a license for your assets and game, you MUST use GPL and that only for the assets too (see GPL section 5c). If this isn't okay with you, then you'll have to distribute your game data files SEPARATELY to the flare executable.
@MedicineStrom: "WithinAmnesia is the sole legal owner and creator of can be copyrighted and he can prevent others from selling the game" not if he licenses his assets under GPL or CC-BY-SA. Those licenses allow everybody to sell their own copies. He must choose some different license for his own creations if he really wants to prevent resale.
"The assets can be under CC-BY-SA, the engine can be under GPL, and the narrative can be under a proprietary copyright."
Exactly. But this also means he can't distribute these parts together, end users will have to download the engine from place A, the assets from place B, and finally the config files for the narrative from place C.
Cheers,
bzt
He can indeed distribute the parts together, so long as those parts under GPL are also available for free, without the rest of WithinAmnesia's components. It's effectively identical to what you propose in your last paragraph, but without as much inconvenience.
End users can download the Engine + Assets + config/narrative (aggregate package) from place A (with payment), and/or download the assets from place B (for free), and/or the engine from place C (for free).
Place A, B, and C can also basically be the same place\website, just with the A link requiring payment, while B and C are free downloads. In fact, the way WithinAmnesia's package is set up, users can access all the content of B and C within the game folder structure and are free to use it for free after only downloading A. The point is, the GPL components are all available even without paying anything (via download of B and C), yet they aren't required to download 1 game from 3 places if they don't want to.
GPL section 5c prevents non-GPL components from being combined with GPL components, but like I said above they must all be separate legal collections. I also said some code couldn't be in a separate collection based on how it's linked. That still doesn't necessitate ALL components from being under GPL even if some parts are.
--Medicine Storm
I have a registered trademark being processed (it takes time even when you pay upfront) currently from https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cipointernet-internetopic.nsf/eng/wr01369.... . To the best of my understanding: Anything that I can legally share (and not prevent the original open source and or sharable work / works from also being shared separately) with / containing my registered trademark legally filed and upholding international law / The Madrid System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_system , legally becomes my intellectual property in as so far as my unique version of the collective work; so far as if I have my registered trademark within said unique collective work. If any person / entity tries (without my [legal] consent) to sell my legally registered trademarked unique collective work then that is illegal by international law. Even if it has open source comments, that I do not prevent from being shared freely from their respective sources / I cannot 'own' the free components; but I can definitely legally own my unique and legally registered trademarked components. That is my current non-exhaustive understanding of my legal status of my work in terms of legal share-ability.
Now as soon as some one takes the legally registered trademarked parts out and modifies the open source / free sharable work; even slightly, then it becomes free to share / it becomes that author's unique work. Yet my unique original version of my game built with my own components and with open source / free to share components (with proper accreditation and upholding the ability of said open source / free to share to remain open to freely publicly share / keep them as I found them) with my legally registered trademark, this unique collective work is still my sole intellectual properly and only I can legally sell this very distinct / unique and exact version of my video game under international law. Anyone / entity who buys my legally registered trademarked video game can still take all of the open source and forever free / publicly sharable components out and make their own version as their collective work legally. Yet a person / entity cannot sell (without my [legal] consent) my collective work as a whole with (at least) my legally registered trademark that upholds the Madrid System without breaking international law. I do encourage people to make video games and all of my work from my art submissions on Open Game Art are meant to be in good faith and encourage / empowered people creatively to hopefully make video games with Flare. I personally believe that I have to not be taken advantage of and be exploited and be stripped of the ability to sell my own unique collection of work.
Thus the efforts for legal fortification of my position (e.g. legally filing a registered trademark). Also as of the efforts for clarity / transparency / seeking public opinions undertaken on my part for the public / everyone to see what my legal options are. Also in the hope to find a path where the open source / forever free spirit / I am still being legal / acting in good faith is upheld. With also being that I can still legally be the sole entity that has ownership of my own unique version of my own collective body of work / my own video game. With also possessing / owning / having the legal authority / legal right to be the sole entity able to legally sell my unique legally registered trademarked collective body of work of my video game. This legal clarity / transparency and legal fortifications are taken on my part to hopefully enable myself to justify the significant hours and personal expense required in creating a video game that I hope can become commercially viable. While also being in good faith / legally sound on my end to also act towards empowering the public to also make video games. I wish to become a commercially viable video game developer with the freedom creatively and legally to do so within reason and without sacrificing my ability to live healthily in order to do so. Also I wish to have the peace of mind that I can be in a legal position to empower myself to create a video game that has the potential to hopefully be commercially viable. Also I wish to help others in the public / global community to also make their own video games.
I have the hope that my efforts of transparency, clarity, good will and leading by example can lead towards creative empowerment of the public / global community herein towards improving the creative endeavours of aspiring developers; regardless as of those who are rich and of those who are poor. From a personal standpoint and or from my own personal perspective and or my past character building experiences; I have struggled in three decades to break out of being a modder for other video games that I have enjoyed to be creative with and to make unique content thereof. Yet I was / I am legally unable to become commercially viable if I sold my very costly to produce work. In fact I could have been / I could be legally sued and I could have lost / I can lose my work and personal finances in regards to trying to be commercially viable working under a work that I do not have legal right to sell thereof. Thus the only way that I can legally become commercially viable in creating my own video games as a video game developer is if I can become the sole legal entity that possess the sole legal authority and legal intellectual property ownership of my own work. An international legal right and legal authority bestowed by and upheld by international law under the Madrid System to legally empower and fortify myself and my legal position to be able to legally sell my own work across the world.
I must then be legally sound / uphold the law with any assets and creative tools I use to create my unique collective works with to hopefully create commercially viable video games. On my current path I believe that I am legally sound / upholding international law and the Madrid System. I am not inhibiting / preventing / stopping / getting in the way of the public from using open source / forever free assets nor am I claiming ownership of an open source / forever free work and or collections of work. Also I am using accreditation / listing credits of the respective authours and making the effort to show the source of the open source / forever free assets / creative tools. I am making the clear distinction that I do not own the components of my video games that are open source / forever free assets and open source / forever free creative tools within my unique collective work of my video game. I do own my unique work and I am taking due diligence and effort to become legally fortified. So that I can legally be the sole legal entity with the legal right to my unique collective works legally fortified with a legal registered trademark. A legal registered trademark that I am the sole legal entity that has legal ownership thereof and is enforced by international law. A legal registered trademark of which that is legally filed under the Madrid System that gives the sole legal right to myself that I solely, can legally be the sole entity legally under international law to sell my unique legally trademarked collective work of my video game. Of which it is illegal by international law as of the Madrid System for any entity acting to sell and or actively selling and or has in the past tense sold my legally trademarked unique collective work of my video game without my legal consent. Thus to the best of my understanding, I am the sole legal entity who has the legal ownership of the intellectually property rights of my unique works and by extension any legally sharable collective of my works; in as at least so far as that such work has within it containing my legal registered trademark. Of which I am sole legal owner thereof and have the exclusive sole legal right bestowed to myself and internationally enforced for myself by international law as of the legal authority invested by the powers of the Madrid System; for myself as the rightful and legal sole entity to possess the internationally legal sole ability to sell my own collective work of my video games to the world.
This is my current non-exhaustive understanding of my legal status / my perspectives of my legal situation regarding my collective works in terms of legal share-ability. Also as to where I am with my legal standing of my collective works with a legally registered trademark within the Madrid System https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cipointernet-internetopic.nsf/eng/wr01369.... + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_system . [Note: This response took some effort / I am sorry for the long read. I hope that my reply is clear and without difficulty to readily understand. I am actively taking the due diligence / effort to be transparent in hopes of acting in good will / good faith and to be honest and open to reason. I welcome constructive and open discussion.]
@MedicineStrom: I'm afraid GPL does not allow that. He might be able to pack the assets (free, but non-GPL, that's important) and his narrative (proprietary) together, but the GPL license explicitly forbids packing the GPL'd engine with other non-GPL parts:
"c) You must license the entire work, as a whole, under this License to anyone who comes into possession of a copy. This License will therefore apply, along with any applicable section 7 additional terms, to the whole of the work, and all its parts, regardless of how they are packaged."
See? "Apply to the whole of the work, and all its parts". The one and only loophole is if the parts are downloaded separately (with the license's words, parts "separately received" by the end users):
"This License gives no permission to license the work in any other way, but it does not invalidate such permission if you have separately received it."
So unfortunately no, "He can indeed distribute the parts together, so long as those parts under GPL are also available for free" would be in violation of GPL, the license is very clear about this.
@WithinAmnesia: "legally becomes my intellectual property in as so far as my unique version of the collective work"
This isn't so. At least not with GPL. See the case of Cisco and the Linux based routers, even Cisco with lots of money and lots of well-paid lawyers LOST on court with this argument.
The said section of GPL does not allow inclusion in a collective work, if one part is GPL'd, then the entire work MUST be GPL'd (no permission to license the work in any other way).
"I can definitely legally own my unique and legally registered trademarked components."
Yes, but GPL section 7 allows your end users to give no sh*t about your trademark and to legally remove any restriction you might impose on your game:
"e) Declining to grant rights under trademark law for use of some trade names, trademarks, or service marks"
"If the Program as you received it, or any part of it, contains a notice stating that it is governed by this License along with a term that is a further restriction, you may remove that term."
My advice is, if you don't want your game to be GPL, then do what the flare game does: distribute the engine and the game data separately.
Cheers,
bzt
Just for the records, one could distribute the flare engine and his proprietary assets together if (and only if) the flare engine were LGPL licensed (but it's not, it's GPL, meaning distribution together only possible if the entire work is GPL'd).
Cheers,
bzt
"@WithinAmnesia: "legally becomes my intellectual property in as so far as my unique version of the collective work""
Please do not truncate my statement @bzt . This can become misinformation and taking what I originally said out of context. For clarity I do not claim ownership of the intellectual property of any of the open source / forever free components of my collective work nor do I prevent the public from using them freely as I originally found them. That being said this is original quote from my above post in full: "To the best of my understanding: Anything that I can legally share (and not prevent the original open source and or sharable work / works from also being shared separately) with / containing my registered trademark legally filed and upholding international law / The Madrid System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_system , legally becomes my intellectual property in as so far as my unique version of the collective work; so far as if I have my registered trademark within said unique collective work."
I am open for discussion and I believe that it would be better for the sake of clarity to have everyone go over the GPL-3.0 / GNU license details. For a quick reference here is the Wikipedia article (which I presume is accurate for educational purposes) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License#Use_of_licensed...
"Use of licensed software
Software under the GPL may be run for all purposes, including commercial purposes and even as a tool for creating proprietary software, such as when using GPL-licensed compilers.[49] Users or companies who distribute GPL-licensed works (e.g. software), may charge a fee for copies or give them free of charge. This distinguishes the GPL from shareware software licenses that allow copying for personal use but prohibit the commercial distribution or proprietary licenses where copying is prohibited by copyright law. The FSF argues that freedom-respecting free software should also not restrict commercial use and distribution (including redistribution):[48]
In purely private (or internal) use-with no sales and no distribution-the software code may be modified and parts reused without requiring the source code to be released. For sales or distribution, the entire source code needs to be made available to end users, including any code changes and additions-in that case, copyleft is applied to ensure that end users retain the freedoms defined above.[50]
However, software running as an application program under a GPL-licensed operating system such as Linux is not required to be licensed under GPL or to be distributed with source-code availability-the licensing depends only on the used libraries and software components and not on the underlying platform.[51] For example, if a program consists only of original source code, or is combined with source code from other software components,[d] then the custom software components need not be licensed under GPL and need not make their source code available; even if the underlying operating system used is licensed under the GPL, applications running on it are not considered derivative works.[51] Only if GPLed parts are used in a program (and the program is distributed), then all other source code of the program needs to be made available under the same license terms. The GNU Lesser General Public License (LGPL) was created to have a weaker copyleft than the GPL, in that it does not require custom-developed source code (distinct from the LGPL'ed parts) to be made available under the same license terms.
The fifth section of version 3 states that no GPL-licensed code shall be considered an effective "technical protection measure" as defined by Article 11 of the WIPO Copyright Treaty, and that those who convey the work waive all legal power to prohibit circumvention of the technical protection measure "to the extent such circumvention is effected by exercising rights under this License with respect to the covered work". This means that users cannot be held liable for circumventing DRM implemented using GPL v3-licensed code under laws such as the U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA).[52]
Copyleft
Main article: Copyleft
The distribution rights granted by the GPL for modified versions of the work are not unconditional. When someone distributes a GPL'ed work plus their own modifications, the requirements for distributing the whole work cannot be any greater than the requirements that are in the GPL.
This requirement is known as copyleft. It earns its legal power from the use of copyright on software programs. Because a GPL work is copyrighted, a licensee has no right to redistribute it, not even in modified form (barring fair use), except under the terms of the license. One is only required to adhere to the terms of the GPL if one wishes to exercise rights normally restricted by copyright law, such as redistribution. Conversely, if one distributes copies of the work without abiding by the terms of the GPL (for instance, by keeping the source code secret), they can be sued by the original author under copyright law.
Copyright law has historically been used to prevent distribution of work by parties not authorized by the creator. Copyleft uses the same copyright laws to accomplish a very different goal. It grants rights to distribution to all parties insofar as they provide the same rights to subsequent ones, and they to the next, etc. In this way the GPL and other copyleft licenses attempt to enforce libre access to the work and all derivatives.[53]
Many distributors of GPL'ed programs bundle the source code with the executables. An alternative method of satisfying the copyleft is to provide a written offer to provide the source code on a physical medium (such as a CD) upon request. In practice, many GPL'ed programs are distributed over the Internet, and the source code is made available over FTP or HTTP. For Internet distribution, this complies with the license.
Copyleft applies only when a person seeks to redistribute the program. Developers may make private modified versions with no obligation to divulge the modifications, as long as they do not distribute the modified software to anyone else. Copyleft applies only to the software, and not to its output (unless that output is itself a derivative work of the program).[e] For example, a public web portal running a modified derivative of a GPL'ed content management system is not required to distribute its changes to the underlying software, because its output is not a derivative.
There has been debate on whether it is a violation of the GPL to release the source code in obfuscated form, such as in cases in which the author is less willing to make the source code available. The consensus was that while unethical, it was not considered a violation. The issue was clarified when the license was altered with v2 to require that the "preferred" version of the source code be made available.[55] "
Now also here is the GNU website for reference: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.html
Now here is the Flare Engine GPL-3.0 License: https://github.com/flareteam/flare-engine + https://github.com/flareteam/flare-engine/blob/master/COPYING
Some key quotations from the Flare Engine GPL-3.0 License:
"Developers that use the GNU GPL protect your rights with two steps:
(1) assert copyright on the software, and (2) offer you this License
giving you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify it." -Line 40
"For the developers' and authors' protection, the GPL clearly explains
that there is no warranty for this free software. For both users' and
authors' sake, the GPL requires that modified versions be marked as
changed, so that their problems will not be attributed erroneously to
authors of previous versions." -Line 44 [Note: when I say my 'unique work' in context to my work with the Flare Engine this is describing my modified version(s) that I developed and that I am the author thereof.]
"0. Definitions.
"This License" refers to version 3 of the GNU General Public License.
"Copyright" also means copyright-like laws that apply to other kinds of
works, such as semiconductor masks.
"The Program" refers to any copyrightable work licensed under this
License. Each licensee is addressed as "you". "Licensees" and
"recipients" may be individuals or organizations.
To "modify" a work means to copy from or adapt all or part of the work
in a fashion requiring copyright permission, other than the making of an
exact copy. The resulting work is called a "modified version" of the
earlier work or a work "based on" the earlier work.
A "covered work" means either the unmodified Program or a work based
on the Program.
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permission, would make you directly or secondarily liable for
infringement under applicable copyright law, except executing it on a
computer or modifying a private copy. Propagation includes copying,
distribution (with or without modification), making available to the
public, and in some countries other activities as well.
To "convey" a work means any kind of propagation that enables other
parties to make or receive copies. Mere interaction with a user through
a computer network, with no transfer of a copy, is not conveying.
An interactive user interface displays "Appropriate Legal Notices"
to the extent that it includes a convenient and prominently visible
feature that (1) displays an appropriate copyright notice, and (2)
tells the user that there is no warranty for the work (except to the
extent that warranties are provided), that licensees may convey the
work under this License, and how to view a copy of this License. If
the interface presents a list of user commands or options, such as a
menu, a prominent item in the list meets this criterion." -Line 73
"4. Conveying Verbatim Copies.
You may convey verbatim copies of the Program's source code as you
receive it, in any medium, provided that you conspicuously and
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keep intact all notices stating that this License and any
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keep intact all notices of the absence of any warranty; and give all
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You may charge any price or no price for each copy that you convey,
and you may offer support or warranty protection for a fee.
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produce it from the Program, in the form of source code under the
terms of section 4, provided that you also meet all of these conditions:
a) The work must carry prominent notices stating that you modified
it, and giving a relevant date.
b) The work must carry prominent notices stating that it is
released under this License and any conditions added under section
7. This requirement modifies the requirement in section 4 to
"keep intact all notices".
c) You must license the entire work, as a whole, under this
License to anyone who comes into possession of a copy. This
License will therefore apply, along with any applicable section 7
additional terms, to the whole of the work, and all its parts,
regardless of how they are packaged. This License gives no
permission to license the work in any other way, but it does not
invalidate such permission if you have separately received it.
d) If the work has interactive user interfaces, each must display
Appropriate Legal Notices; however, if the Program has interactive
interfaces that do not display Appropriate Legal Notices, your
work need not make them do so.
A compilation of a covered work with other separate and independent
works, which are not by their nature extensions of the covered work,
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used to limit the access or legal rights of the compilation's users
beyond what the individual works permit. Inclusion of a covered work
in an aggregate does not cause this License to apply to the other
parts of the aggregate." -Line 195 [Note: my trademark is for my separate works regarding my medieval fantasy setting applicable to multiple forms of media. My video game made using the Flare engine is an aggregate of the open source Flare Engine and of my own separate copyrighted and trademarked medieval fantasy works.]
"7. Additional Terms.
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Each time you convey a covered work, the recipient automatically
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"Selling Free Software
Some views on the ideas of selling exceptions to free software licenses, such as the GNU GPL are also available.
Many people believe that the spirit of the GNU Project is that you should not charge money for distributing copies of software, or that you should charge as little as possible-just enough to cover the cost. This is a misunderstanding.
Actually, we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can. If a license does not permit users to make copies and sell them, it is a nonfree license. If this seems surprising to you, please read on.
The word "free" has two legitimate general meanings; it can refer either to freedom or to price. When we speak of "free software," we're talking about freedom, not price. (Think of "free speech," not "free beer.") Specifically, it means that a user is free to run the program, study and change the program, and redistribute the program with or without changes.
Free programs are sometimes distributed gratis, and sometimes for a substantial price. Often the same program is available in both ways from different places. The program is free regardless of the price, because users have freedom in using it.
Nonfree programs are usually sold for a high price, but sometimes a store will give you a copy at no charge. That doesn't make it free software, though. Price or no price, the program is nonfree because its users are denied freedom.
Since free software is not a matter of price, a low price doesn't make the software free, or even closer to free. So if you are redistributing copies of free software, you might as well charge a substantial fee and make some money. Redistributing free software is a good and legitimate activity; if you do it, you might as well make a profit from it.
Free software is a community project, and everyone who depends on it ought to look for ways to contribute to building the community. For a distributor, the way to do this is to give a part of the profit to free software development projects or to the Free Software Foundation. This way you can advance the world of free software.
Distributing free software is an opportunity to raise funds for development. Don't waste it!
In order to contribute funds, you need to have some extra. If you charge too low a fee, you won't have anything to spare to support development." - https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
"Selling exceptions depends fundamentally on using a copyleft license, such as the GNU GPL, for the free software release. A copyleft license permits embedding in a larger program only if the whole combined program is released under that license; this is how it ensures extended versions will also be free. Thus, users that want to make the combined program proprietary need special permission. Only the copyright holder can grant that, and selling exceptions is one style of doing so. Someone else, who received the code under the GNU GPL or another copyleft license, cannot grant an exception." - https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling-exceptions.html
"I have been in contact with Clint Bellanger and I have a lot more clarity now and it looks good. I can legally sell my video game and the community can also be forever free to modify my video game:
*after a ~long series of confidential emails / out of respect Clint Bellanger I will only post a very small brief piece for educational reasons / to add closure to this thread*
Myself:
"So I can make a video game "built on" the Flare Engine and Fantasy core and all Open Source / GPL-3.0 License / CC-BY-SA license assets / components with proper permissions and with proper attribution of components creditor with credits and have a registered trademarked title and legally be the sole entity able to sell that exact version of the video game online? Also the community is legally forever free to modify my video game as long as the title is changed and the video game's content is at least once modified?"
Clint Bellanger: [The legal copyright owner of the Flare Engine and the Flare Game]
"Basically yes on everything you said. This is one reason I chose the license, so that remixer and modders could safely release and sell their projects as long as they were also cool with other remixers and modders."" - Second Post from the top of this thread https://opengameart.org/forumtopic/if-i-make-a-video-game-via-the-flare-...
With all of that considered and quoted my fingers and brain are a bit sore XD. It appears to myself that I am legal and not in breach of the GNU / GPL-3.0 License with my use of the Flare Engine in my permission provided by the legal copyright holder with this statement (as quoted above): ""So I can make a video game "built on" the Flare Engine and Fantasy core and all Open Source / GPL-3.0 License / CC-BY-SA license assets / components with proper permissions and with proper attribution of components creditor with credits and have a registered trademarked title and legally be the sole entity able to sell that exact version of the video game online? Also the community is legally forever free to modify my video game as long as the title is changed and the video game's content is at least once modified?
Clint Bellanger: [The legal copyright owner of the Flare Engine and the Flare Game]
"Basically yes on everything you said. This is one reason I chose the license, so that remixer and modders could safely release and sell their projects as long as they were also cool with other remixers and modders.""
To my current understanding I am acting in good faith, good will and with proper accreditation of the respective entities related to my unique work and I am being legal with my commercial operations in regards to my development and planned commercial release of my video game(s) made with the Flare Engine. I hope that my open form of discussion has improved clarity on my part and I am acting to uphold the spirit for open source software and the aims of the GNU and the spirit and good will of the Open Game Art community.
@WithinAmnesia: "Please do not truncate my statement @bzt . This can become misinformation and taking what I originally said out of context."
Could became, but it didn't. Sorry, but I had to, because you always generate so much noise that the important part easily gets lost.
"For clarity I do not claim ownership of the intellectual property of any of the open source / forever free components of my collective work"
For example the important part in this sentence is, you said "YOUR COLLECTIVE WORK". There's no such thing. You simply CANNOT create a collective work including a GPL'd part, the license DOES NOT PERMIT that (read section 5c).
"My video game made using the Flare engine is an aggregate"
It is only an aggregate if you do not combine them into one distribution medium, and ends users receive (download) them separately.
Cheers
bzt
@bzt: You're correct. I was thinking of aggregates under LGPL and collections under CC-BY-SA. I cannot speak to GPL's virality (and should not have). My underlying intent was to point out that WithinAmnesia has spoken with the GPL copyright holder and has been granted his blessing. We are not privy to the full circumstances specific to an arrangement between Clint Bellanger and WithinAmnesia. Any such arrangement would be wholly separate from how GPL affects anyone else with this project, so I won't get into that, and I apologize for adding confusion to this.
How this applies to WithinAmnesia's specific circumstances aside, for anyone else looking for understanding for their own projects, I do agree with bzt's advice to distribute GPL'd engine code separate from content/configuration if they're not also GPL'd. Actually, I recommend avoiding GPL entirely. Of all the free licenses, it is the least free IMO. Those same features probably make it one of the stronger licenses, too, I guess. It's more of an anti-closed-source license than it is a pro-open-source license.
--Medicine Storm
@bzt "...Could became, but it didn't. Sorry, but I had to, because you always generate so much noise that the important part easily gets lost.
[True, my message although made for clarity became quite wordy and hard to easily navigate / read. It was a case of myself favouring maximizing accuracy / detail / clarity at the expense of being easy to read and not boring the reader to tears. The medium is the message, although I felt that if I did anything less than a near-exhaustive reply to be as clear and open as I could; I would be doing less than I was able to do. Given the complex nature of the GPL-3.0 terms and many things to consider at once I went with a huge amount of detail for clarity to avoid assumptions; yet admittedly the readability suffered for the sake of accurate finite detail for the purpose of clarity.]
For example the important part in this sentence is, you said "YOUR COLLECTIVE WORK". There's no such thing. You simply CANNOT create a collective work including a GPL'd part, the license DOES NOT PERMIT that (read section 5c).
"My video game made using the Flare engine is an aggregate"
It is only an aggregate if you do not combine them into one distribution medium, and ends users receive (download) them separately."
@~'anyone' I have special permission granted from Clint Bellanger in my case for a special selling exception / a special permission arrangement / my case is an extraordinary circumstance possibly outside of the usual person who might seek to emulate any of my steps towards legally working with GPL-3.0 and making video games. Okay so with an "aggregate" in the context of the GPL-3.0 License, with regular circumstances a person working with GPL-3.0 must put the GPL-3.0 part / components in a separate area / file as a separate distribution media. Then whatever is not GPL-3.0 / content outside of the context of GPL-3.0 License. These two things can be combined by the user separately into a working game. As like with having the game mod files being say a ZIP file that are separate from the Flare Engine and can be sold with copyright and sole legal entity ownership by the author. Then having a separate ZIP / link / way to publicly access for free the Flare Engine. These two separate bodies of work can be combined by the user to run the game. Now what is the legal status of that?
I would imagine if someone took a Disney logo and put it on the Flare Game bundled with the Flare Engine and *sold* that bundle as their video game. That action would be illegal for it would breach some kind of international law regarding copyright / trademark. Is this the case for I personally have not seen someone / an entity 'loophole' / legally circumvent / avoid being illegal with the international trademark law for intellectual property they do not legally own using GPL-3.0? With an effort to retroactively try to terminate the 'stolen' intellectual property trademark owner's rights via the GPL-3.0 License term of forcing all related collective content to become GPL-3.0 as well. Although I wonder if GPL-3.0 License has termination clauses / points where the person / entity trying to 'weaponize' / abuse GPL-3.0 to try and ~'pirate' intellectual property / try and 'loophole' international trademark law for commercial use; if doing that is in breach of the terms of GPL-3.0? With said person / entity trying that would have their right to use the GPL-3.0 License content revoked? I am sure there are people who understand this with great detail who can have accurate answers.
So legally without all of the complexity of getting special permission(s) to legally commercialize a video game / effectively a ~'Flare Game' Mod that runs on the Flare Engine. At very least a regular person can legally make their Flare Game style mod into as ZIP file; and even with an unregistered copyright they have sole entity ownership of their video game and can be the only one to legally sell their video game internationally? With their video game that runs on the Flare Engine but their video game ZIP does not contain the Flare Engine and GPL-3.0 License components? Then the users can combine the video game ZIP and the Flare Engine ZIP / linked files together and that becomes some-kind of working video game for the user. If the user then tries to sell that exact version combination of the video game ZIP with the Flare Engine bundled without permission from the video game creator and the Flare engine creator / owner (Clint Bellanger) does that person have their GPL-3.0 License revoked and the video game creator can defend their case of intellectual property theft? In say having Steam / GOG / Epic etc. take down the ~'stolen' video game for the video game creator who legally is the sole entity with ownership of their video game / copyright / trademark? If the video game was a modified version of the original without breach of any respective individuals' copyright legal rights that should be legal to commercially sell? For it is a unique version and not technically just stealing an exact copy of another's video game and trying to sell it as is. Also that style of 'good will' between content creators is honouring Clint Bellanger's wishes and philosophy of "this is one reason I chose the license, so that remixer and modders could safely release and sell their projects as long as they were also cool with other remixers and modders". I would like to get more feedback (within reason) on these possibly 'grey' areas. For such feedback could help other people who want also make video games with GPL-3.0 License components. Moreover I believe that this whole open discussion helps the creative community on how to act legally and with good will and in good faith when making video games commercially with the Flare Engine and other related GPL-3.0 components.
"my case is an extraordinary circumstance possibly outside of the usual person who might seek to emulate any of my steps towards legally working with GPL-3.0"
If you have made an agreement with Bellanger, then that agreement is only between the two of you, and you're not using GPL for the engine any more. You're using that agreement instead as a license (which you should made clear in your video game that you're NOT using the GPL'd version of the engine).
"As like with having the game mod files being say a ZIP file that are separate from the Flare Engine and can be sold with copyright and sole legal entity ownership by the author. Then having a separate ZIP / link / way to publicly access for free the Flare Engine. These two separate bodies of work can be combined by the user to run the game. Now what is the legal status of that?"
That's exactly what an aggregate is. If both ZIP files are licensed under a free license, then GPL allows to use them together on the end user's computer and it does not force GPL on the other ZIP file. (Free license here means free as in freedom, NOT as in free beer, so the first ZIP can be sold for money no probs.)
"I would imagine if someone took a Disney logo and put it on the Flare Game bundled with the Flare Engine and *sold* that bundle as their video game."
It doesn't matter if you sold it or not. You don't have the right to relicense the Disney logo under GPL, so it would be illegal no matter what (sold or not, using someone else's intellectual property without the copyright holder's permission is always illegal). For example creating a fan-game is always illegal, it's just the copyright holder usually decides not to take legal actions as long as the fan-game is free of charge. But they most likely will sue you if you try to sell your fan-game with *their* intellectual property.
"With an effort to retroactively try to terminate the 'stolen' intellectual property trademark owner's rights via the GPL-3.0 License term of forcing all related collective content to become GPL-3.0 as well."
You got this all wrong, upside-down. GPL does not terminate the original trademark, if an asset's terms of use does not allow relicensing under the GPL then you're legally not allowed to use that asset in a GPL'd game.
If it is your trademark and you decide to license your work under GPL, then you should be aware that by doing so you give up your rights to that trademark.
"even with an unregistered copyright they have sole entity ownership of their video game and can be the only one to legally sell their video game internationally?"
First, there's no such thing, registering copyright. If you're the creator of that work, then copyright is AUTOMATICALLY belongs to you (at least if you live in one of these countries, but this might be true for other countries as well). In some countries (like in mine and most of the EU), the ownership of the intellectual property is unalienatable, meaning you cannot sell the ownership even if you want to. All you can do is just licensing your work and sell the licensing right, but it is always going to be yours, no-one can take the ownership away from you. In the USA you can sell the ownership too, but I recommend to NEVER EVER do that.
Second, the copyright owner decides the terms of the use of their work by others. They can make it so that no-one else can sell their work (this usually called non-free, proprietary). But instead of figuring out the terms of use from ground up with the help of an expensive lawyer, they can instead choose to pick an already existing license. If they choose GPL as a license, then they should be aware that that license grants permission to ANYONE to sell their work, because it is a free and copyleft license. If they are not okay with that, then they should pick another license (or pay a lawyer to write their own licensing agreement).
I hope I could answer your questions,
bzt
Here's a little glossary to help you in this maze (not legally sound definitions, just explanations):
Owner of the intellectual property - is always the creator of the work.
Copyright holder - the one who decides the terms of use of the work. By default, this is the owner of the intellectual property, but the right could be sold or granted to others.
License - a set of terms. These terms define what an end user can do with the work (including granting copyright, which never happens with non-free licenses; but it is common for free licenses.)
Copyleft - if the license's set of terms include a criteria that the end users cannot change the terms as they like. They must use the same terms on their own covered work as the original work's terms of use were.
Sold or not - doesn't matter at all from the legal status' perspective. If the work is non-free (proprietary), then you can't modify nor redistribute it in the first place; and if the work is free (as in libre) then you can modify and redistribute it gratis or for a fee, again, price doesn't matter.
Cheers,
bzt
Thank you, that provides a lot of clarity @bzt.
""my case is an extraordinary circumstance possibly outside of the usual person who might seek to emulate any of my steps towards legally working with GPL-3.0"
If you have made an agreement with Bellanger, then that agreement is only between the two of you, and you're not using GPL for the engine any more. You're using that agreement instead as a license (which you should made clear in your video game that you're NOT using the GPL'd version of the engine)."
What should a person like myself do in such a case with their video game under such a circumstance? In the credits of the video game should there be some thing like this?:
"Myself:
"So I can make a video game "built on" the Flare Engine and Fantasy core and all Open Source / GPL-3.0 License / CC-BY-SA license assets / components with proper permissions and with proper attribution of components creditor with credits and have a registered trademarked title and legally be the sole entity able to sell that exact version of the video game online? Also the community is legally forever free to modify my video game as long as the title is changed and the video game's content is at least once modified?"
Clint Bellanger: [The legal copyright owner of the Flare Engine and the Flare Game]
"Basically yes on everything you said. This is one reason I chose the license, so that remixer and modders could safely release and sell their projects as long as they were also cool with other remixers and modders.""
How should such a special permission / special arrangement be clearly found with the video game and or where should such a thing be (in the video game credits, on the download page etc.)?
""I would imagine if someone took a Disney logo and put it on the Flare Game bundled with the Flare Engine and *sold* that bundle as their video game."
It doesn't matter if you sold it or not. You don't have the right to relicense the Disney logo under GPL, so it would be illegal no matter what (sold or not, using someone else's intellectual property without the copyright holder's permission is always illegal). For example creating a fan-game is always illegal, it's just the copyright holder usually decides not to take legal actions as long as the fan-game is free of charge. But they most likely will sue you if you try to sell your fan-game with *their* intellectual property."
Okay so copyright is quite solid and deep in ~'legal' fortification / legal protection offered to the owner of said copyright. So the very act of relicensing (without special permission from the copyright owner) with or without GPL involved is completely illegal from the start?
""With an effort to retroactively try to terminate the 'stolen' intellectual property trademark owner's rights via the GPL-3.0 License term of forcing all related collective content to become GPL-3.0 as well."
You got this all wrong, upside-down. GPL does not terminate the original trademark, if an asset's terms of use does not allow relicensing under the GPL then you're legally not allowed to use that asset in a GPL'd game.
If it is your trademark and you decide to license your work under GPL, then you should be aware that by doing so you give up your rights to that trademark."
Okay so the copyright owner of their own video game (without special permissions like in my case) and with their work being separate from the GPL-3.0 License ZIP / linked files; regularly has to keep the video game separate from any GPL-3.0 License components to keep their video game from being changed to a GPL-3.0 License? Yet if the video game copyright owner under regular circumstances mixes their video game with any GPL-3.0 components (e.g no special permissions and both their video game and the GPL-3.0 License components are in the same ZIP file) everything in that ZIP file (without special permissions) has to become GPL-3.0? This is in part because the copyright owner of the video game put their copyrighted video game with GPL-3.0 License components and not the user? Yet if under regular circumstances the with video game being separate from the GPL-3.0 License components / parts. With also the video game not violating the GPL-3.0 License terms on the video game owner's behalf. Can the video game owner be expected to legally be able to sell their video game separate from the GPL-3.0 license components? So GPL-3.0 could kick in if the video game author / copyright owner under regular circumstances combines their video game with GPL-3.0 license components? The user cannot take the video game author's copyrighted work / video game and ~'revoke' / remove the original video game's copyright under regular circumstances and specifically they cannot remove copyright of a work they do not own by putting said work with a GPL-3.0 License component / work; because the user does not have ownership of the video game and cannot force the video game author to make it GPL-3.0 for only the video game copyright owner has that choice to make? Is that more close how these legal details work together? As like the author of a video game only has the choice to make their copyrighted work GPL-3.0 License and no one else can force that to happen? For that would be illegal / against the legal rights of the video game author / copyright owner?
""even with an unregistered copyright they have sole entity ownership of their video game and can be the only one to legally sell their video game internationally?"
First, there's no such thing, registering copyright. If you're the creator of that work, then copyright is AUTOMATICALLY belongs to you (at least if you live in one of these countries, but this might be true for other countries as well). In some countries (like in mine and most of the EU), the ownership of the intellectual property is unalienatable, meaning you cannot sell the ownership even if you want to. All you can do is just licensing your work and sell the licensing right, but it is always going to be yours, no-one can take the ownership away from you. In the USA you can sell the ownership too, but I recommend to NEVER EVER do that."
From my current understanding that is technically true. Yet I heard that it is a good idea / due diligence / good practice to register a trademark and also for extra legal fortification (within reason) to register a copyright like here in Canada: https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cipointernet-internetopic.nsf/eng/wr03915.... . So that if there is ever a legal dispute / battle, your legal case is a lot more legitimate if you have a proven legally registered trademark and also copyright. It is not 'needed' but if ~'the gloves come off' / if there is a serious legal dispute / disagreement a registered trademark is very legally fortified / solid and a registered copyright is even more legally fortified / solid. I think that (in Canada at least) once a person makes something that is their own unique work, that unique work is instantly legally owned by the author of said work (under regular circumstances).
"Second, the copyright owner decides the terms of the use of their work by others. They can make it so that no-one else can sell their work (this usually called non-free, proprietary). But instead of figuring out the terms of use from ground up with the help of an expensive lawyer, they can instead choose to pick an already existing license. If they choose GPL as a license, then they should be aware that that license grants permission to ANYONE to sell their work, because it is a free and copyleft license. If they are not okay with that, then they should pick another license (or pay a lawyer to write their own licensing agreement)."
So it is to the copyright owner's discretion / freedom of choice to pick the license to share their copyrighted work under? No one can do this except the author of the copyrighted work? I wonder how many 'pre-made' sharing licenses there are to pick from? Is there a list or more sources than what @MedicineStorm linked here: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html ?
this thread is like the poster child for "why people are scared to fiddle with libre software"
when people explain it as "free as in free speech, not free beer" you look at that it's like cool i get it. then you actually start reading the licenses (atleast the "strong copyleft" ones like gpl) and it is overwhelming and quite frankly doesn't feel free at all. it is about limiting me, but limiting me to ensure that others are free to have the same limitations that i have.
i love the concept of libre software and open content. i really do. but when you get into the muck with it, it's so confusing and requires one to invest significant time in understanding legalese that could be spent actually making some shit. that's why i decided all my art would be cc0 cuz it's the easiest to understand and most useful for the end user, and all my code would be expat/mit cuz it's the easiest to understand and most useful for the end user. the tradeoff is that what i put out there is as free as can be, but the license does not ensure that it stays free. i am ok with that.
of course nothing i just said helps anyone understand how to properly distribute gpl flare game engine and proprietary flare assets. sorry to derail the information train, just thought i would butt in with some totally not useful sidebar discussion.
EDIT:
@WithinAmnesia if you had an informal discussion with Clint Bellanger and he said "go ahead and do that" I don't think that is quite the same as having him "alt-license" his code to you under a proprietary license. But as bzt said, yes the originator of any work is free to license that work in whatever way they choose. So if Clint Bellanger created the Flare code, he owns the Flare code that he made. He distributed under gpl, so the code that was distributed under gpl. My understanding is that he can still take his code and "alt-license" it to others under proprietary license (or sell ownership entirely as bzt alluded to earlier.) But I don't think he would have the right to take the gpl'ed code that has been modified by Flare community and re license it. But i honestly know nothing about flare or it's dev history, and who actually wrote the code or any of that stuff.
My point is that you might wanna have a more thorough discussion with Clint Bellanger as to what he meant, and what rights have you been granted. I don't think quoting what appears to be an informal half paragraph from a private email is enough to justify that you have "non-gpl" rights to use his gpl code.
oh and https://snyk.io/learn/open-source-licenses/ is another nice link for foss licenses that are out there.
that's just my two cents, minus inflation.
Well the more perspectives and voices the better I find it @Ragnar Random . It is pretty true that these very fine details that are all connected in a big legal web with GPL-3.0 License can be quite tiring to get a grip on. They might even argue against people in the future using it under good faith if their goal is to make sharing as convenient and ~'free' to use for the public user and commercialize for the subsequent author. Although that being said I am glad that this whole ~'can of worms' / complex legal relationship with the Flare Engine and the GPL-3.0 License is open to the public; clear to understand and with upholding the good will of the community. I hope that in the future new and current creative people using / planning to use the Flare Engine find themselves to be less inconvenienced / not scared to use the Flare Engine; and in a more clear to understand legal situation for everyone here in the Open Game Art community.
I hope that we can get to a place where all of the legal details are ~'ironed out' / publicly discussed and can be seen by the public and have some hopefully useful examples of how to legally and healthily commercialize and share video games built with the Flare Engine and its GPL-3.0 License. For example maybe @Danimal could make a ~'commercial version' / invest more time and resources for his mod and be able to justify the time and effort with the peace of mind that he can sell the video game legally. As in with by following some examples / ~'guides' found here. I hope that more people can make cool video games and hopefully we can get to a place where new people can find clear and convenient examples / ~'guides' to follow for legally making their own hopefully commercially viable video games; even the video games working with the Flare Engine and its GPL-3.0 License.
I wonder what such a legal ~'guide' to make a video game with the Flare Engine would look like if we get to a point of open legal clarity for the creative community with how to make a video game running on the Flare Engine and its GPL-3.0 License; perhaps we are already there? Perhaps someone like @MedicineStorm (and or a person with a general interest in community building) would be interested in making (a) clear legal guide(s) to follow for video game authors / creative people within regular circumstances on how to legally make a video game that can work with the Flare Engine and its GPL-3.0 License? With also still having the video game author have the sole legal ownership of their own video game that only they can legally sell to the world? Effectively making a legal development ~'guide' / path to follow to successfully legally navigate around the potential legal issues found with the Flare Engine's GPL-3.0 License; verses a video game developer trying to sell their work legally, fairly and with peace of mind. As in keeping the right to their intellectual properly and still conveniently and healthily be able to sell their unique work / video games to the world.
@Ragnar Random I do not want to bug Clint Bellanger about legalities unless I absolutely have to. It was already an inconvenience for Clint to play email tag back and forth with myself and for each other become clear with what I could commercially do with the Flare Engine and the Flare Game. I think it took close to a week and multiple forums / websites to respectfully get a dialog going. I understand that he is also busy with other things in his life. So I feel even worse in kind of pulling him into something that can potentially be quite inconvenient. I would like to listen to as much feedback as I can before acting. That being said I would like to better understand how I should act in good faith and in good will with regards in how I should present my circumstance / special permission / blessing from Clint Bellanger with my video game. The more feedback (within reason) the better I find it.
Agreed. The majority of confusion and frustration comes from people wanting to be free to share their work when it's mixed with libre content, but being unable to include other components that are non-libre. GPL and CC-BY-SA are the largest source of this frustration for most people. Well, there's the -NC and -ND licenses, but I - nor FSF - do not consider those to be libre licenses.
However, it is worth noting that FSF has clarified in several instances that "non-functional data" (content that is not code) does not trigger the linking requirement:
...and also...
(Emphasis mine)
This, and my assumptions about WithinAmnesia's project, is what my original statements were based on. Saying "You simply CANNOT create a collective work including a GPL'd part, the license DOES NOT PERMIT that (read section 5c)." is true... for code. which is why Section 5 is titled "Conveying modified source versions". Creating an aggregate or collective work that includes GPL'd code but non-GPL'd non-code may be permitted. I'm not going to say it IS permitted always, because it depends on a lot of factors, but I tend to trust FSF's interpretation of their own license. Of course if you're licensing art and data as GPL, then of course it all needs to be GPL. However, as you can glean from everything above, GPL is a code license, and makes for a crappy art license. You can use it for art, but it makes things very confusing.
@WithinAmnesia: Whether or not the engine is being used under the terms of GPL or under a properitary private agreement between Clint and yourself doesn't prevent you from letting your players know the engine your game runs on is available under the terms of GPL. Only you get to use the engine under any special terms Clint gave you, but everyone else is still allowed to use the engine under GPL if they want, and you're allowed to say so. No one but Clint is allowed to complain about how you're packaging or using the engine.
Any code changes and code additions you make should also be made GPL and shared with everyone, but the narrative, "quest data", configurations, and art you create are your own and- IMHO- can be packaged in the same download, if not the same folder/zip-file. (As non-functional data, they are not triggering the linking requirement nor qualify as "source code" referenced in GPL section 5, based on FSF's interpretation referenced above. Though this does depend on how you're licensing your own non-code content. GPL as well?) It is always good advice to double-check with the author if you're not clear on what they're ok with, but it seems to me you already had a good understanding of what Clint Bellanger was ok with. You can bug him again if you need, but it doesn't seem like you need to.
There is no risk of Clint (or anyone else who shares content under GPL or CC licenses) revoking his license and saying people can no longer use it freely; these licenses are irrevokable... Also, Clint is the kind of guy that would never do that anyway, even if he could.
--Medicine Storm
Okay, it seems to myself that there is a sense of resolution / overall clarity with how I am able to legally and in good faith and in good will from the creative community operate / develop and potentially commercially release my video game made with the Blessing of Clint Bellanger of his Flare Engine and Flare Game. Also there seems to be more clarity on what a person with regular circumstances can regularly expect when using the Flare Engine to make a video game for a hopefully commercially viable release and still be legal and healthy to do so.
For clarity / good practice in my credits I plan to openly / publicly host my special permission granted to myself / Clint Bellanger's Blessing of his Flare Engine and Flare Game to operate legally for my development and potential hopefully commercially viable release of my video game. I hope to also operate with good faith and with good will of the creative community / Open Game Art community.
As a working prototype it seems that including even my above quotation of my special permissions in the credits of my video game should be able to display openly / publicly my special arrangement / special permissions / the Blessing of Clint Bellanger of his Flare Engine and Flare Game:
"*After a ~long series of confidential emails / out of respect Clint Bellanger I will only post a very small brief piece for educational [and legal] reasons / to add closure to this thread [/ article.]*
Myself:
"So I can make a video game "built on" the Flare Engine and Fantasy core and all Open Source / GPL-3.0 License / CC-BY-SA license assets / components with proper permissions and with proper attribution of components creditor with credits and have a registered trademarked title and legally be the sole entity able to sell that exact version of the video game online? Also the community is legally forever free to modify my video game as long as the title is changed and the video game's content is at least once modified?"
Clint Bellanger: [The legal copyright owner of the Flare Engine and the Flare Game]
"Basically yes on everything you said. This is one reason I chose the license, so that remixer and modders could safely release and sell their projects as long as they were also cool with other remixers and modders.""
To my current understanding I am acting legally and in good faith and with good will of the creative community / the Open Game Art community and with the Blessing of Clint Bellanger of his Flare Engine and Flare Game. I hope that this open discussion can increase the legal clarity for the creative community and improve the legal confidence for people in regular circumstances to feel confident and able in with making a hopefully commercially viable video game working with the Flare Engine. I hope that everyone's effort herein can form a ~'guide' / legal path forward towards a clear and hopefully more convenient way for the creative community to use the Flare Engine in regular circumstances with commercial viability as a goal for the video game developer / author.
@WithinAmnesia: "How should such a special permission / special arrangement be clearly found with the video game and or where should such a thing be (in the video game credits, on the download page etc.)?"
No matter what the licenses are, you always have to have a "Terms of Use" page in your game (could be in a txt file downloaded in the same package, but it must exists). You should put it there, along with the other attributions.
"So the very act of relicensing (without special permission from the copyright owner) with or without GPL involved is completely illegal from the start?"
That depends on the terms of use. For example, the GPL grants you the right to use the work without special permission (the permission was given to you when the copyright owner has chosen GPL), but you can only "relicense" the covered work under the same GPL, nothing else. The Disney logo is proprietary, meaning its terms of use requires you to have a special permission in order to use it.
"has to keep the video game separate from any GPL-3.0 License components to keep their video game from being changed to a GPL-3.0 License?"
Basically yes, distributing your data files separately from the GPL'd engine is the simplest way to avoid GPL'ing your entire game. (Note: keeping them separate isn't enough, must be distributed separately too, the end users have to receive (download) them separately, otherwise it wouldn't count as an aggregate.)
"So it is to the copyright owner's discretion / freedom of choice to pick the license to share their copyrighted work under? No one can do this except the author of the copyrighted work?"
Yes and no. Yes, it is up to the copyright owner how to license the work. But no, the copyright holder is not necessarily the author of the work (unless stated otherwise, he is). For example: the author of Star Wars is George Lucas. By default he was the one to say the terms of use of his creation. But he has sold the copyright to Disney, so now it is up to Disney under what terms can the SW brand be used, Lucas (even though he is the author) has no more say in the matter.
"I wonder how many 'pre-made' sharing licenses there are to pick from?"
Quite a lot actually. @MedicineStrom's list a pretty good one, but it's not (and can't be) a complete list. But if you ever get to court, you got lot more chance if you're using a well-known license (like GPL or CC-x) than a less-known one. The CC homepage also has a list of juridictions by countries where its licenses are known to be recognized.
@Ragnar Random: "when people explain it as "free as in free speech, not free beer" you look at that it's like cool i get it. then you actually start reading the licenses (atleast the "strong copyleft" ones like gpl) and it is overwhelming and quite frankly doesn't feel free at all."
That's only because you're confusing the object of the context. Free licenses are not (and never were) about the freedom of the creators, they are all about the freedom of the end users. Keep this in mind and everything will get crystal clear.
@MedicineStrom: "The majority of confusion and frustration comes from people wanting to be free to share their work when it's mixed with libre content, but being unable to include other components that are non-libre. GPL and CC-BY-SA are the largest source of this frustration for most people. Well, there's the -NC and -ND licenses, but I - nor FSF - do not consider those to be libre licenses."
Agreed too. And you're right, those are not free licenses in the sense that end user doesn't have the full freedom to sell or distribute the work.
"However, it is worth noting that FSF has clarified in several instances that "non-functional data" (content that is not code) does not trigger the linking requirement"
Sadly this isn't so, linking or not doesn't matter at all. I get it that that was FSF's original intention, but unfortunately they have added this phrase to GPL: "and all its parts, regardless of how they are packaged" (pay attention to "all parts", not just code, and "regardless how packed", not just linking). And what counts on court is the phrasing of the license, not FSF's explanations :-(
Even your quote from the GPL FAQ uses the words "licensed separately", but by the terms of the GPL this is only possible if the engine and the game data is an aggregate.
"as you can glean from everything above, GPL is a code license, and makes for a crappy art license. You can use it for art, but it makes things very confusing."
This is absolutely true, both. The vague wording forces GPL on the included art in the package too, but it is indeed very confusing as an art license.
Cheers,
bzt
In RE: @bzt
"That's only because you're confusing the object of the context. Free licenses are not (and never were) about the freedom of the creators, they are all about the freedom of the end users. Keep this in mind and everything will get crystal clear."
I would say I do more as an end user than as a creator. And as an end user, I try to use BSD-style licensed stuff whenever possible. GPL and strong copyleft limits me as a user. That's how I feel, that's my opinion. Obviously plenty of people disagree with me and agree with Stallman. I don't.
In my opinion freedom and openness in the context of collectivism is about not placing restrictions on end user, not about making sure that "information stays free because information wants to be free." Information doesn't want anything. People want stuff. People who want to make sure that information/art/data/code stays free and anyone who uses it are locked into that same license, that is what CC-BY-SA and GPL and strong copyleft are for.
For me, as a creator: I will license my art cc0, license my code expat/mit.
For me, as an end user: I will seek out art that is licensed cc0, cc-by, or oga-by, and code that is bsd-style licensed.
IMO it is as much about philosophy as it as about confusion over viral licensing.
"GPL and strong copyleft limits me as a user."
Absolutely not. There's absolutely no difference between free licenses for the end users, because end users never create derivatives, they just use the software as-is on their computers. And even if they redistribute the unmodified software there's no difference for them (no change also means no changing of the original license). And if they change the software, then they are creating a derivative, hence they become creators.
"For me, as an end user: I will seek out art that is licensed cc0, cc-by, or oga-by, and code that is bsd-style licensed."
There's your confusion. End users never seek out art, they just use a software with whatever art it is shipped with. When you say "you will seek out art", that means you want to use those art in your project which in turn is going to be used by others, so you're not the end user. In other words you're creating a derivative of those art you seek, which makes you a creator, not an end user.
Cheers,
bzt
I'm guessing Ragnar was referring to being a creator of art vs a user of art. Or perhaps a creator of code vs a user of code. In that sense, both the creator and user are "creators", but one creates the subcomponent, the other uses the subcomponent in order to create something else.
Also, I agree. As both a 1st generation creator ("creator") and a 2nd generation creator ("user" of content for furtherance of creation) I find GPL to be more a waste of time than any benefit I get from it's content as a user-creator.
As a pure user, yes, GPL content has been pretty useful to me. I would even give back and produce more useful things for users to use under GPL, if it weren't so much easier to use MIT stuff to make content instead. Even then, I rarely play GPL games- that would otherwise probably be a fantastic experience- except for inconvenience placed upon me, the end user, by GPL's rules; I want to play a game. Free download, except I have to download multiple separate components and combine them correctly. Often, I don't combine them correctly and the game won't run. Free is nice, but GPL games are rarely "good enough" to warrant the extra inconvenience of doing a bunch of extra steps just to circumvent the content being licensed differently.
Yes, yes, I should just focus on games that are 100% GPL so they don't require combining separate packages. The problem is, where are they? Where are all the good games that are both 100% GPL and aslo aren't a chore to get working? That is only partially a cynical statement. If anyone has a good list of GPL games, share the list and let's give them some love. :) Incidentally, games like Battle for Wesnoth and Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup do not qualify for such a list because they are good, and convenient, but they are packaged together with non-gpl content.
--Medicine Storm
Your original statement
"Free licenses are not (and never were) about the freedom of the creators, they are all about the freedom of the end users"
If the definition of a user is someone who doesn't create derivatives or fiddle with open code, then what benefits do free softwares have to these end users other than they have the ability to share the software that they got under a copyleft license? What does it matter to these end users what license the software has? And if it doesn't matter, then why have a libre software movement at all, if not for the benefit of creators whose creations can benefit from those free cultural works?
@MedicineStorm: I think so too, if he's not the creator of the art but he is using that art in his project, then he is still a creator (because he's creating a project with that art). Auch, this hurts to explain :-)
About GPL and MIT, I think that depends. If you're okay with the "anybody can use your creation for whatever purpose they want" (including building a closed-source proprietary SkyNet with it), then yes, MIT is simpler.
But if you want your creation and its derivatives to forever be free and open source, then GPL, hands down.
Same with libre art licenses: if you're okay with the absolute freedom (like someone using your art in a closed-source proprietary Metaverse game sold for lots of money without even mentioning your name), then use a permissive license like CC0 or MIT. If you want attribution and that your work only being used in free projects, then use a less permissive copyleft license like CC-BY-SA for example.
So at the end of the day it comes down to the author's intentions with his/her creation.
Cheers,
bzt
as a creator i believe that by putting stuff out there with no restrictions is the most free. people are free to use it, misuse it, abuse it, whatever. it's more imporant to be that they have that right than for me to try and control what happens to it after i put it out into the multiverse.
but to each their own.
i'm gonna go play super tux kart now. :p
Yes, agreed. My struggle is with balancing "derivatives will always be free forever" and "useful and convenient enough to encourage people to derive it in the first place". I have settled on preferring the higher adoption rate and convenience that comes with MIT, CC0, CC-BY, and as Ragnar mentioned BSD even if it comes with the sacrifice of people sometimes closing their derivatives of it.
Hear, hear!
I want to make clear this is only my personal opinion on the hardships of FLOSS licensing. I am not discouraging anyone from using any particular license. I, and OGA, will always be for open source and free content in all its forms. I just feel that some of those forms are better than others for certain situations.
--Medicine Storm
"If the definition of a user is someone who doesn't create derivatives"
Watch the wording, not "user", it is "end user". Otherwise yes, end user is the one who is just using the software.
"what benefits do free softwares have to these end users other than they have the ability to share the software that they got under a copyleft license?"
That they have access to the source, they can study it, and they can modify it for their own needs. This you cannot do with proprietary software. Copyleft restrictions only kick in if they also want to distribute their modified versions.
To understand FOSS, maybe a little history is in order. It first started when someone got a printer driver with a simple, but very annoying bug which he wanted to fix, but in lack of the source he couldn't. That's the origin (the "Open-Source" part). The other part where that particular person wanted to pass the fixed driver to his college, come later (the "Free" part). And the realization that he doesn't want an unethical college to sell his modification in a binary-only form as if it was entirely his and forcing the same no-source problem to his customers, come the last (the "copyleft" restriction part, only in some libre licenses).
Cheers,
bzt
but if i access the source, study and modify it for my own needs i am no longer "an end user" now i am a "creator"
i guess we be splitting hairs at this point. i am familiar with the stallman story though.
i will say this. when i first started putting my music out there, i had written my own custom license prohibiting people from using my art in works that were racist, sexist, or pornographic, because of my own ethical beliefs. then i decided i wanted to put it on oga, so i switched to a cc-by license, with an "ethical suggestion" in reference to same type of content.
in the end i decided that cc0 was best. even though ethically i don't want my work being used in works that i believe are abusive, i decided i would rather let people have the freedom to do evil. their evil is on them, not on me. i know that my art could be used by some nazi or misogynist whose philosophy i loathe. they are doing the wrong, not me.
my point in all that is i have altered my position multiple times on licensing issues as a creator.
"but if i access the source, study and modify it for my own needs i am no longer "an end user" now i am a "creator""
Nope. You'll have to distribute your modification for that. The GPL license is very clear about this, but other libre licenses too. (I know, it might be confusing at first, but nobody cares what you're doing if you don't want to pass that to others. Part of your freedom if you like.)
Cheers,
bzt
@bzt
"@WithinAmnesia: "How should such a special permission / special arrangement be clearly found with the video game and or where should such a thing be (in the video game credits, on the download page etc.)?"
No matter what the licenses are, you always have to have a "Terms of Use" page in your game (could be in a txt file downloaded in the same package, but it must exists). You should put it there, along with the other attributions."
I wonder how I should present / format my "Terms of Use"? What should a person like myself do in such a situation? I should put a "Terms of Use.txt" in my video game ZIP file / where the player gets my video game. Would this work for a "Terms of Use.txt" file (with something like this inside?):
"For display openly / publicly my special arrangement / special permissions / the Blessing of Clint Bellanger of his Flare Engine and Flare Game:
"*After a ~long series of confidential emails / out of respect Clint Bellanger I will only post a very small brief piece for educational [and legal] reasons / to add closure to this thread [/ article.]*
Myself:
"So I can make a video game "built on" the Flare Engine and Fantasy core and all Open Source / GPL-3.0 License / CC-BY-SA license assets / components with proper permissions and with proper attribution of components creditor with credits and have a registered trademarked title and legally be the sole entity able to sell that exact version of the video game online? Also the community is legally forever free to modify my video game as long as the title is changed and the video game's content is at least once modified?"
Clint Bellanger: [The legal copyright owner of the Flare Engine and the Flare Game]
"Basically yes on everything you said. This is one reason I chose the license, so that remixer and modders could safely release and sell their projects as long as they were also cool with other remixers and modders.""
To my current understanding I am acting legally and in good faith and with good will of the creative community / the Open Game Art community and with the Blessing of Clint Bellanger of his Flare Engine and Flare Game."
Would something like that work as a proper "Terms of Use.txt"? How should a "Terms of Use.txt" be made / formatted / presented to the player / user? What should be in the "Terms of Use.txt" for it to work as intended / be useful for person in my situation to openly show my special arrangement / special permissions / the Blessing of Clint Bellanger of his Flare Engine and Flare Game?
Also I was looking for some examples of how to make / present / format Terms of Use for a video game creators and I found this website with a sort of guide: https://www.termsfeed.com/blog/terms-conditions-games/
Does this sort of ~'Terms of Use' website guide have a degree of relevancy or is this more something for making custom licenses?
"I wonder how I should present / format my "Terms of Use"? What should a person like myself do in such a situation?"
For the parts that are your creation, it is totally up to you (and to the license's requirements you choose). For the parts that you use in your project but were made by others, you must always read their terms of use and specifically the attribution requirements and act accordingly (usually those already have a CREDITS.txt and LICENSE.txt which you can copy).
In general, if you use something like the following template you should be fine:
[asset's name here] [asset's URL here] Copyright (c) [author's name here] [license here]
For example
LPC Fireplace https://opengameart.org/content/lpc-fireplace Copyright (c) Sharm, Lanea Zimmerman CC-BY 3.0
or
FantasyCore https://github.com/flareteam/flare-game/tree/master/mods/fantasycore Copyright (c) Clint Bellanger and contributors, see https://github.com/flareteam/flare-game/blob/master/CREDITS.txt CC-BY-SA 3.0
Note that the used asset's licenses may have additional requirements. For example, the author might require you to put a link to his/her profile. That's why it is a good idea to copy their CREDITS.txt as-is, because that must fulfill all their requirements, so you don't have to worry about the details. Also the GPL in particular expects you to add a text file with the entire GPL text, just referring to "GPLv3.0" or adding an URL isn't enough. If you concatenate all of the referenced licenses full texts at the end of the file, you must be okay no matter the license.
An exemplary solution is the LPC Character Generator's CREDITS.TXT (for the used assets) and LICENSE (for its own Terms of Use. For simplicity, this latter is just the full text of GPL).
"Does this sort of ~'Terms of Use' website guide have a degree of relevancy or is this more something for making custom licenses?"
I believe yes, it looks like a very through guide. When we are talking about attribution of used assets, the guide calls that "Third Party Materials". In your case that would be the FantasyCore assets I guess. But you don't have to create your own Terms of Use from scratch, you could just pick an existing license and add your own additional terms to it.
Cheers,
bzt
@bzt Okay that is quite informative. I hope that once I add more assets from Open Game Art that I can ask the community for help and review the attribution / CREDITS.TXT to make sure everything is legal and proper and the way it should be.
I have all of my art files that I have obtained from Open Game Art stored away from my own work and separated by author. I made a clear effort to keep any work that was not my own / must be very clear legally on how to use / I need to make my attribution for their work with my credits properly / if I don't need it for a prototype I don't use it and keep it away quarantined in a library for browsing.
I make sure to keep all of the potential trouble making assets away from my video game prototype. As to avoid mixing art assets until I am absolutely sure that I can use the art assets. Even then I hope to ask the community each time that I add more art assets from Open Game Art; to hopefully make sure that I am operating properly and legally.
I am not quite at the step where I am making highly polished / high quality areas and general content for my video game. Yet hopefully when the Flare Engine is in a performance capability spot where I can be confident that the vast majority of critical and creatively empowering game features and mechanics are tested and proven to be working properly; maybe potentially hopefully with Flare Engine Version 1.14 and or 1.15? Then hopefully with due diligence in engine performance testing, feature scope goals and a reasonably manageable content creation scope. I can then shift creative gears and start carefully adding in extra art assets if needed and with open community review hopefully.
Okay this open discussion albeit long and very detailed has given myself a great deal of clarity of how to properly operate with many kinds of work licenses. As in for working with many kinds of open and closed source work regarding from a users perspective and author's perspective. Also in what to expect with common licenses found at least around the Open Game Art community. So I hope to focus on making more Flare related prototypes to test more and more critical mechanics. My current interest has been focused upon the Flare Engine Version 1.13+ 64-bit executable that can support enlarged x 4 graphics. Which can effectively support 4K+ graphical resolution with increase frames per second (e.g. 60 FPS) over the Legacy Flare Engine; with it's limiting 32-bit executable and low frame rate and pixelated graphics. Bit by bit.
Although I do find it reassuring to be able to find help within the creative community for even very complex potential issues and or significant details in regards to most everything legal XD. I also hope that with this big open discussion on the forum that it can help others in the future with making video games.
a CREDITS file is especially easy for any assets on OGA:
You'll get a nice complete list of all assets, licenses, links, and attribution. Stuff you've downloaded also counts as a collection, but I imagine not everything you downloaded are things you intend to use in the game. That's where creating a special collection comes in handy. You can curate the content in it as needed. Make multiple collections, even! If I'm working on multiple game projects at the same time, I have one collection for each project.
--Medicine Storm
Can these collections deprecate over time if it is effectively a sort of live service / what happens if some files go missing on the servers? This feature looks to be quite convenient. I should use this in the future to hopefully make things work out in a good manner.
I'm not sure I understand the question. "Files go missing"? You mean what happens if OGA dissappears from the internet? It's been around nearly as long as github. What if files go missing from github?
--Medicine Storm
Like what happens if say the link in the credits goes to a file that is missing? Like it somehow does not exist anymore / error 404 etc. / link to nowhere? Lots of links die over time on the internet. Although I am not too worried although I am just asking for extra detail / clarity.
the collection system is only for OGA assets, so OGA would have to disappear for the links to die.
--Medicine Storm
Okay so the links go down with the OGA ship? So far all of the credit links worked fine for everyone else I take it? I hopefully presume that it is yesXD.
I assume so. I haven't asked the thousands of people using them, though. I mean, if OGA goes down, you wouldn't have access to the collection either.
If you're asking if it's ok for the credits file to contain links to a hypothetically-defunct OGA, then yes. The license doesn't require that you maintain a flawless copy of the internet, just that the links were valid at the time you obtained the asset.
--Medicine Storm
Oh okay that makes sense. Thank you for the link clarity :-).
So if I have a collection of art from OGA with a copy / license type of their license and with their author's proper accredited in my game credits with links to where I originally found them. Then even if the OGA some how does not work online; I am still operating properly / within reason in the future I presume?
It has to be within reason. Or else the whole world would not function properly with so many defunct lost websites and past media types?
Are these licenses forever? If I was back in 1996 and I got (somehow) a piece of art form a now defunct lost website to use in my video game and got all of the current / at the time proper and legal accreditation and license type links. Even if the source of the art / work is lost and I have a ~'relic' / a surviving copy of art with the proper credits. I would still be able to use that art even if no one else could find that piece of art / work; yes? It has to be surely or else the world would be unable to function lol XD. I guess this is where the whole acting in good faith and with good will and the whole 'spirit of the law' becomes relevant. Eh, spiraling details and what ifs XD. This is great and all but I feel that I could better spend my time working on my video game. There is a lot to do and near infinite potential; onwards and upwards:-).
the license you got it under is the license you got it under, forever. it is irrevocable. even if the author removes the asset from oga, changes the license to "nazi license 3.1" it was licensed to you at the time you recieved it under the terms of the license you recieved it under.
so if i go change my rock music pack to gpl 2.0 right now, people who download it from henceforth will be under gpl 2.0 license terms for their use. but anyone who downloaded before "recieved it" under it's current cc0 terms are only subject to ther terms they recieved it under.
i wouldn't worry about it. if oga dies then we will all commit seppuku anyways.
Okay thank you @Ragnar Random , that makes a lot of logical sense. Okay this all seems to be within reason and all of the major concerns that I had are addressed. I know a lot more detail than I did before and I am with a much more clear understanding to everything we covered above. So then onwards and upwards; bit by bit :-).
Hi! Thank you guys for the sharing!!
Ok, i get you!