If anyone knows of official usage guidelines, they would still be very helpful here. Since OGA has firmly established disallowing trademarks in submissions, I also agree adding a notice regarding the specific trademark is a good idea, but we'll wait a bit for xelu's input first.

I'm glad this important discussion kicked off!
And just to stay clear: I only concentrated on the SONY stuff for now. What about the Xbox or Nintendo buttons?
I assume there isn't any issue as those companies aren't using the button icons as identifiers as much as SONY does, but "assume" != "know"

So is the usage of all other icons except for the 4 SONY shapes no problem anyways?

You're really expecting a diffrent reply other than?:

"We can't tell you. Generally you're not allowed to use our trademarks. The seperate icons, are not really what seems trademarked, but idk."

It never hurts to ask, though.

Either way, why are you taking a look at their homepage?

Their homepage isn't what legally requires you not to use their trademarks.

If you really want to know whether the other symbols are trademarked, ask a lawyer
or ask the bureaus in charge for the region you want to make sure no trademark issues will be present.

(WIPO is a pretty good site, where you can also see that at least in Malaysia, the pink triangle on it's own is trademarked)

Depending on the law, already the presence of all of these shapes at once in a picture, even if they are placed far apart for another,
could be interpreted as a trademark violation. (Using a trademark that is too similar)

What is and is not, decides the judge in your country and state.
This being said, please specify for which country you want to make entirely sure that there won't be any trademark issues.

Laws differ across countries. For example:

[Removed OT]

Having slept on this, I'm not so sure anymore.  I do believe what I said was correct.  The trademark featured on that page was for the circle, square, triangle, X combination, the same way the trademark on their for PS2 or PS3 was for those letters in that funny font, in that order and not for the individual letters 'P', 'S', '2' in those fonts.  Like I said, that particular sequence of the symbols does feature prominently in alot of Sony marketing materials.

That said, it's hard to believe Sony created those symbols and put them all over their marketing materials and then failed to put any kind of legal moat around them.

One thing I've noticed anecdotally over the years is that it is rare to see the Sony symbols on unlicensed 3rd party controllers.  '1,2,3,4' used to be pretty standard but since about the advent of the x360, you see 'A,B,X,Y' all over.  Often even with the Xbox color scheme to them.  If Microsoft has any claim to those letter and button color combinations they certainly aren't out there trying to enfoce it.  Of course, that letter combination dates back to the SNES and has been featured on many Nintendo controllers since, right up to the current Switch controller.  I notice the letter combination has also been featured on the Onlive controller, the new Google Stadia controller, and the Steam controller.

So I think there is little doubt that A,B,X,Y are open for public use.  By contrast, the lack of similar buttons from other manufacturers does make one wonder if the Sony symbols are truly fair game. 

To check my anecdotal observation, I searched around Amazon for a bit just now and other than flagrant knock-off products (of which Amazon is chock full), the only controllers I could find that used anything close to the Sony symbols used mutations of them (eg. putting large dots at the vertices on each symbol).

In googling various controllers, I did find that the Ouya controller used the letters 'O,U,Y,A' with the O looking pretty much identical to Sony's circle (how could it not) but is colored differently.

To me, all of this suggests that either Sony owns an outright trademark on those symbols, or other manufacturers are sufficiently afraid Sony will come after them that they avoid the symbols irrespective of Sony's actual legal position.  Although, it's possible they do so for product differentiation (although if so, then why do they all use the same 'ABXY' scheme?)

In googling this topic more, I also found this little bit:

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/61181/can-i-use-playstation-...

which suggests:

--------

While the letter X is not copy protected, the specific cross used on the controller, along with the other shapes: , are trademarked. Using your own art to represent the buttons (as in your example image), should be OK under fair use, specifically nominative fair use. Where the qualifications for nominative fair use are one of the following situations:

• The product or service cannot be readily identified without using the trademark (e.g. trademark is descriptive of a person, place, or product attribute).
• The user only uses as much of the mark as is necessary for the identification (e.g. the words but not the font or symbol).
• The user does nothing to suggest sponsorship or endorsement by the trademark holder. This applies even if the nominative use is commercial, and the same test applies for metatags.

In this case, you're not trying to use the symbols as your own, but instead are directly referring to Sony's trademarked buttons, which likely falls under the first category.

-----

If I read that correctly, it's saying you are ok to use the symbols under 'fair use', so long as you are using them to depict Sony's controller buttons, as you might in a 'Controls' dialogue in a game.

However, that does leave open the question of whether you are ok to use them in an art pack that you post on the internet for anyone to download.  Since the icon is intended to depict a Playstation button, perhaps that is ok, although certainly the context has changed from using the icon directly to depict the button in a Playstation game.

Moreover, all the license supported by OGA are specifically broader than 'you can use this so long as you use it to depict a Sony Playstation controller button'.  Indeed, they all allow you to use a work however you please with only some restrictions on how you turn around and redistribute the work.

So, for example, if you took a Sony style X button from an icon pack on OGA and used it for a 'Self Destruct' button on the control panel for a space ship in wacky galaxy spanning, time defying adventure quest game that would be ok by the terms of the license presented on OGA.  In fact, that is exactly the kind of use case OGA seeks to encourage.  However, it's unlikely that use would constitute 'fair use' of Sony's trademarked symbol.

So tldr;

Those symbols are most likley well trademarked by Sony.

They are also most likely to fine to use on icons depicting controller buttons in a 'Controls' dialogue in a Playstation game.

They could cause legal or other licensing issues if used in any other context, including contexts explicitly allowed by the license supported on OGA.

Therefore, the specific Sony button icons (square, cross, circle, triangle) are probably not suitable for works hosted on OGA.

Full disclosure, I have two controller icon packs up there on OGA both of which include icons depicting the SONY symbols on them, so I do have a bone in this fight!  Unfortunately, looks like I am on the wrong side of my own arguments on this one!  :)

> Fighter19: German law applies for anyone who can affect German citizens.
> Fighter19: Thus you're techincally not allowed to make this site available until you have an "legal info" page,

LOL! just let the mods know if you're a german citizen so they can ban you to make the site unavailable to you. problem sovled!

> Fighter19: If you really want to know whether the other symbols are trademarked, ask alawyer

the symbols are trademarked. you dont need to ask a lawyer to know that. the question is if it is ok to use the symbols by themselves or in a game not on the playstation. prolly need a lawyer for that, tho.

[Removed]

Back to the topic of trademarks:

To my knowledge, a license for a graphic of a trademark, does not grant you the right to use that trademark only to use the graphic.
At which point a license for a trademark has to be obtained, differs.
In many cases, as "withthelove" pointed out,
trademarks can be used freely under "fair use" (as apparently it's called in the U.S.).

I have to agree with withthelove here on most points, except for the "We're not allowed to provide it, because the graphics license contradicts the trademark license". (I hate to repeat myself, but I really think the license for a graphic, that OGA is providing, and the license for a trademark are two entirely different concepts and have nothing to do with each other). (Just in the same way that someone can sell you a patented item, that you then have no right to use, as the patent license, does not give you the right to use it.
(for example SD cards))

And exactly this is, what I would ask either a lawyer about, or take a deeper look into the corresponding law texts.

EDIT: Typos, rephrased.

@Fighter19:  The goal of OGA is to provide art that users can download and use without worrying about encountering any copyright, trademark, licensing or other legal issues so long as they follow the terms of the selected OGA-supported license(s).

You are correct, OGA iteslf might be ok to distribute these items but that is not the only question OGA is concerned with.   Equally as important to OGA is the question, "Can a user download this work and use it free of concern so long as the obey the terms of the selected license?"  In this case the answer is no because the trademark also dictates how the item can be used.

Effectively, the trademark acts as a secondary restriction on the use of the work.  It's no different than when submitters put additional conditions on using their works in the notes or attribution fields (eg. 'you can not use this song on YouTube').  These restrictions aren't always caught, but when the are, the mods invariably ask that either the restriction or the work itself be removed.

> Fighter19: zombietom, if you have no clue about trademarks, please don't talk.

it seems like I know as much as you do about trademarks. maybe you should take yor own advice. I was not saying a _copyright_ license gives you rights to use a _trademark_. I was responding to your statement:

> Fighter19: if you really want to know whether the other symbols are trademarked, ask a lawyer.

there is no question they _are_ trademarked. and since oga is a us based site where german laws arent enforced, here are the US based trademarks:
http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=79081621&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch
http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=79252718&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch
http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=79975238&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch
http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=79089053&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch
http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=79071955&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch
http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=79081621&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch
http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=79975238&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch.

we all know trademark != copyright. but oga doesn't allow trademarks on the site either. even if the license for graphical art is not the same as license to use the trademark. still not allowed. because _oga site policy_ says so, not because the law says so.

OOps. withthelove gave a much better answer while i was typing. sorry.

Trademarking simple shapes shouldn't even exists. But we live in a f*'d up human world that loves corporate police States.

My 2 cents that doesn't brings much to the debate.

I agree, if this is a self-imposed mission, which I do respect,
I'd at least warn the user about it.

(Maybe put it into a seperate download with a special warning?)

I think Sony might be able to enforce it if they really wanted to.
(After all shape is nearly identical and color and use as well).

It appears the community has arrived at a consensus on a few things:

1. Sony's trademark is stupid.
2. Although there is a difference between copyright and trademark, this community considers both concerns worthy of scrutiny.
3. Despite #1, we should let people know of the potential pitfalls of using trademarks in their projects so they can make an informed assessment of how Fair Use affects them.

If there are no objections, I'll add a notice per #3 and omit the potentially troublesome symbols, while also making them available elsewhere for users to decide their own circumstances.

@docfo4r: to answer your earlier question, I believe using the triangle-circle-cross-square buttons in a playstation game should be perfectly fine. What OGA shares and what you're allowed to use are not quite the same thing. Nominative Fair Use, and all that. I can't give you any sort of guarantee or endorsement, obviously. Ultimately you'll have to make your own determination.

As for other non-Sony buttons and symbols: The XBox, Steam, and Nintendo logos and branding could be problematic for you in the same way the Sony symbols may be, but those don't appear in this pack, so they were not addressed. Sony appears to be the only one with trademarked button symbols. All other controllers use fairly generic letter or number designations (not trademarked), so they were not the focus of the discussion above.

@MedicineStorm, I was planning to use them in a game to be released on Steam.
I see for example Rocket League detects a PS4 controller and shows the controller icons aswell in the Steam version. So either it is okay to do so, or they have a special agreement with SONY. And I guess there are other games that do the same.

I asked Unity support for advice aswell.
I know, they might not be able to give a satisfying answer, as nobody here does unless he is a lawyer or knows specific country regulations [yes, I am from Germany].

I just share the info's that I will receive.

I was thinking, Sony don't just let anyone become a developer for their consoles. there's a load of red tape, and acceptance stuff that goes on first. I'm guessing that once your game/company is pitched to sony and they accept you/indie/whoever/whatever and you are granted 'playstation developer status', Sony will most likely give you certain permissions. So use of their trademarks, symbols etc may be aloud to be used under license aggrements pertained by that status. So to see games on the'steam' platform and others, with those symbols and stuff, then theres a good chance that those games are available on the playstation consoles or digitally on the store. 

anyone here a Sony developer? maybe they can shed some light. :)

@xelu you may have missed the discusiion points, its about using a 'trademarked' symbols and there availability in assets hosted here. :)

@xelu

The idea here is that people should be made aware of any implications that the use of these symbols have.
OGA's idea is that you can take these assets look at the license and have nothing else to worry about.

For example, someone could take the PlayStation symbols and use them in a completely different way, other than to describe the buttons present on a PlayStation controller.

(For example, someone decides to use these graphics to create a controller on his own)

As it seems, it's being wished here that people are being made aware, that there might be further implicit limitations, that are not present in the CC0 license.

 > Why would the trademark discussion even be relevant if you are an approved developed about to release on the PS4?

right. it wouldnt be relevant. but approved developers arent the only people downloading these.

> Why would Sony or Xbox come over your indie game for supporting their controllers?

i mean yes you probably will never have a problem and never get in trouble. sony wont come after you for using the symbols in your playstation games, and who would use them in a game that isnt going to be on the playstation? but i think what people are saying is you _could_ use them incorrectly and get yourself in trouble.

> Here is a list of games that used these controllers prompts and released on multiple platforms including PS4,Xbox and Switch

yes a lot of games have used these buttons and didnt get in trouble, but thats not really proof that you wont ever. look i cna do that too. here is a list of games that used the red cross on a white background for their medkits

Prison Architect
Halo
Transformers
Half life
Doom
Final Fantasy 15
Alien vs Predator
Alien: Resurrection
Aliens: Colonial Marines
Alpha Prime
ARMA
Battlefield
BlackSite
Borderlands
Breed
Bulletstorm
Call of Duty
Call of Juarez
Carnivores
Catacomb
Darkwatch
Day of Defeat
Delta Force
Dishonored
Duke Nukem
Dying Light
blah blah blah, I didn't even get past teh letter D for the most part. there is lots more.

but all these games had to change their graphics or get sued. https://kotaku.com/video-games-arent-allowed-to-use-the-red-cross-symbol-1791265328 

just because a bunch of AAA games did something doesnt mean its allowed. that doesnt mean noone should use these. but they should think about if the way theyre using the symbols is going to piss off sony. like withthelove said, its usually no problem under fair use. but OGA cant tell mpeople its fully safe without a little disclaimer about fair use.

i think its basically settled and agreed its no problem as long as there is a small notice abou t it.

Red Cross really? And people gives money to these "charities".

I'm sorry but the global retardation is at its peak. Let the people do. If these entities, with their pockets full of money, cries we will see.

At worst do like on Blendswap: w/ a interface element saying its fan art / used by corp, so the users know about it and take their own INFORMED choices!

Enough of f*ing policing. We are already starting to live into police States...

@zombietom I agree with all you've wrote except for:

> sony wont come after you for using the symbols in your playstation games, and who would use them in a game that isnt going to be on the playstation?

Nowadays it's common to use the PS controllers on the computer. I see streamers do so, friends and I aswell. And in that particular case, and game engines like Unity can distinguish between connected controllers, it's fairly easy to provide the player the correct button set when configuring controls for example.

In my case, I own a computer and a playstation. Why should I buy any other controller if the PS controller is working just fine on PC games?

Even on the official playstation website, they tell you how to connect the PS4 controller to the computer in case you want to use it for PC games:
https://www.playstation.com/de-de/get-help/help-library/accessories/controller--headset---playstation-camera/pair-dualshock-4-wireless-controller-with-pc-or-mac/
[sry, it's german]

And again, I know just by showing that SONY describes how to use the controller on PC doesn't mean a developer is allowed to use the icons. It just shows that the controller can officially be used to play non-PS games aswell that are supported.

As zombietom and others said,

it's less about whether anyone will actually get into trouble,
and more about whether this is ACTUALLY ok.

In this case it doesn't matter, even if 99% of developers used PS icons in their games.

It's about making sure to avoid legal trouble for anyone. (After all, this is the very reason why we have OGA, no? We want to make sure everything is ok with the assets we use and with the way we use them in).
And to re-emphazise, this is not just about whether it's ok to use these items in the context of describing button mappings,
it's about giving people a false sense of legal safety by providing them a license which grants them the right to do anything with the graphics. One that might lead them into (at worst) thinking, they can use them to create their own controller with said button graphics.

To me it's like saying:"Oh, because you gave someone a weapon and said:"You can do anything you want with it, it's yours", they will try to kill someone with it!".

It doesn't make sense imo, because you don't know what that person's intention really is. But in a certain way that person is right, if you gave everyone a gun in this fashion, surely there will be someone who tries to kill someone with it and then tries to blame it on you.

As zombietom rightfully pointed out, the IRCF started sending "nice" letters (which is also what one of my first comments was based on), that developers should refrain from using the red cross in their video games. (Happened for example in Prison Architect). This is also the reason why in the re-release of DOOM this cross is now green. (But the red cross is not a trademark, though. So I wouldn't really want to compare this.)

Funny enough the reason WHY I associate the red cross with health at all, is because of their use in old videogames,
not because of the few cars driving around.

In a game like DOOM you're really depending on the help from the "red crosses" (Health Packs).

In the same way, if people start removing PS icons from their PC games, because Sony can't give an all-clear,
maybe they realize it will hurt them more on the long term to be silent and will finally give an all-clear.

I would stop speculating about why others did it this or that way.I don't think Sony trademarked THIS special look of the icons, in these colors each seperately with these shapes (outline only),
but don't take this as legal advice, please. (This is the reason why I disagree with zombietom regarding his statement:
"The icons are trademarked".  regarding the relevance of the icons being used together.)

Either way, for most people legal trouble (even if they're technically in the right to do whatever they want to do),
is undesirable.

Thus making sure no one will have any reason to complain, is what is trying to be achieved here.
This is why for this question, it's irrelevant, whether they've trademarked these exact symbols seperately or not.

:)

btw, when i said the symbols are trademarked i meant the symbols _together_ are definitely trademarked. its right from the united states patent and trademark office. you can disagree with them if you want, but there is no arguing about it. like i also said, the question is if it is ok to use the symbols _by themselves_.

just like it is ok to use a green cross _by itself_ on a medkit

or a red H on a white medkit _by itself_ with no cross

but you can not use a red cross on a white medkit _together_

prolly just beating a dead horse at this tpoint, tho. im just nitpicking details. it looks like op or admins added a disclaimer note, so i guess its all good now

Why is there no Nintendo Switch SL & SR button prompts?

Yeah, they're missing. If you scroll back through the comments you'll see that I've posted them already though, feel free to use those :).

My brother extracted the icons from the FLA into SVG files. If you don't have or want to use Adobe Animate, you can edit the icons with Inkscape or something. You can find them here. Enjoy! https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZV80OkZO5SkVllmi5pfvGEhu5jnVkJq...

Man you're a boss <3

What an awesome pack.  Thanks so much for posting this.   I'm not fantastic at graphic design so these are a real timesaver.

I'll be using the images as controller hints when gamepad support is released in the next AnyRPG version.

I've added you to the in-engine credits.

Added a few variations of gamepad sticks with arrows in different directions
https://opengameart.org/content/free-gamepad-stick-directions-based-on-xelus-free-keyboard-and-controllers-prompts-pack